07-26-2002, 01:23 AM | #1 |
Hobbit
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Do Elves have two forms?
I'm re-reading LOTR in preparation for the next movie, (and I ran out of Sword of Truth books) and something jumps out to me that I've never noticed before in either LOTR or the Silmarillion, The Elves seem to have two distinct forms of being. When Frodo crosses the Fords with the nine on his heals I beleive it was Glorfindel <sp> who was behind him chaseing the nine seemed to change in essance to both Frodo and the wraiths. Now I don't remember them talking about this in Sil or anywhere else in LOTR. Can any of you set me straight?
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07-26-2002, 02:02 AM | #2 |
Slacker
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Perhaps Glorfindel revealed himself in his full power and glory at the Ford. Gandalf says that Frodo saw him as he is on the other side. By 'the other side', I think Gandalf means as he is in the wraith world, because Frodo was slipping into wraith world after he was stabbed with the Morgul blade. Maybe all elf lords glow brightly and appear with great power in the spirit world. As far as I know, no one else in LotR or the Silmarillion (I haven't finished it yet, though) has an encounter with an elf lord in the wraith world, so maybe that explains why you don't hear anymore about it.
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07-26-2002, 02:45 AM | #3 |
Elven Warrior
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After Gandalf came back from the dead, his clothes and hair were bright white too, and he had to wear a cloak so as not to blind anyone. Apparently, if you are an elf or Maia, etc, and you are killed, you are sent to Mandos(?), and you have a chance to go back. Glorfindel was killed by a Balrog( like Gandalf ) and when he was sent back I guess he was "white" as well. Correct me if I got something wrong.
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07-26-2002, 02:02 PM | #4 |
Long lost mooter
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Hmm.. Gollum describes how he hateses elves, especially noting about their bright shiny eyes. Maybe he saw them similarly to that (how Frodo did at the point in question) because he was close to the wraith world from having the ring for soooo long.
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07-26-2002, 02:04 PM | #5 |
Best Ex-Administrator ever
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This belongs to the Middle-Earth forum.
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07-27-2002, 06:10 PM | #6 |
Elven Warrior
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I thought that in the FOTR, it said something about Glorofindel being in two places @ once. It says that they live at once in both realms. Can anybody help me out on that? I'm a bit confused!
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07-27-2002, 08:28 PM | #7 | ||
Elven Loremaster
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Gandalf did not go to Mandos when he died. In Letter 156, Tolkien speaks about Gandalf's death, and speculates on who, exactly, sent Gandalf back (of course, Tolkien knew, but he was trying to show that there was a higher authority than the Valar):
From Letter 156: Quote:
In an essay he wrote very late in his life (Circa 1972), Tolkien stipulated that Glorfindel was released from Mandos early on because of the great sacrifice he made at Gondolin. And Tolkien also decided that Glorfindel had become enhanced: Quote:
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07-27-2002, 09:09 PM | #8 |
Best Ex-Administrator ever
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This is from Nolendil.
Everyone has two forms. It is not just the "wraith world" that Gandalf speaks of, it is the "unseen world". The idea is that there is an entire world co-existant with our own that goes completely unseen to mortal eyes. When Elves fade -- when their spirit at least becomes stronger than their body and consumes it -- they go into the unseen world, where they are not visable to us. When Frodo puts on the One Ring, he is halfway into the world. The Nazgûl are completely in this unseen world, but they were "real" clothing so as to interact with "us" on a physical plane. Thus when Frodo puts on the Ring he sees the Nazgûl as they are on the other side. It is his Barrow-blade wound and the Ring itself (which heightens Frodo's senses to such things) which allows Frodo to get a glimpse of Glorfindel on the "other side", in the unseen realm. All Elves who live or had lived in the Blessed Realm live in both realms and observe both. Thus Glorfindel has power over both the seen and the unseen. Frodo and Sam both have "otherworldly'" glimpses. Frodo briefly sees Aragorn wearing mail and good, clean clothing by Dol Amroth, when Aragorn says softly: "Arwen vanimelda, namárië", "Arwen fair-beloved, farewell". Frodo got a glimpse of the past. Samwise once sees a terrible image of his master standing over Gollum, robed in white. This is a glimpse of Frodo on the other side and Sam was able to see because he had worn the Ring. This sort of information is I think scattered throughout different books. |
08-02-2002, 04:39 PM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
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How delightfully clear as mud! Just kidding, Thanx 4 your help!
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"Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars..." ~The Hobbit "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whose you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." -Joshua 24:15 Step follows step, Hope follows courage. Set your face toward danger Set your heart on victory! "Where is Elizabeth?" "She's safe, just like I promised. She's all set to marry Norrington just like she promised, and you get to die for her just like you promised. So we're all men of our word, really....except for Elizabeth who is, in fact, a woman." ~Will Turner and Jack Sparrow, POTC fROdO LIVeS!!!! |
08-02-2002, 05:25 PM | #10 |
The Insufferable
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I would say that it's less a matter of having two distinct forms as it is of existing across a spectrum.
For example, when frodo saw glorfindel, he also noticed 'shadowy figures'- aragorn and the hobbits. The conclusion I draw is that everyone exists in both worlds, do a different degree. The ainur do not manifest int eh seen except through an act of will, while men, on the other hand, are almost totally corporeal. It takes some kind of sorcery to give them the boost they need to act in the wraith world. This also explains quite a few other things, such as why the ringbearers were immortal, why they became invisible, and why why they eventually couldn't return to the flesh.
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08-03-2002, 02:00 AM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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That really does clarify things Wayfarer, thanks. The post I had Comic Book Guy post for me was typed think late night when I was tired. I am not have been too clear.
An occurance I read again recently: When Aragorn reveals himself to Éomer as the heir of Elendil, Legolas sees a white flame on his brow like a crown.
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10-26-2002, 12:26 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
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Hmmmm... I never thought of that...
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