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11-10-2005, 03:20 PM | #1 | |||
Fëanorophobic
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LOTR Discussion Project: Book V, Chapter 4: The Siege of Gondor
So, here’s my intro as promised. I’ve chosen to present it in point-form, because long paragraphs can appear too daunting; so here we go:
Book V, Chapter 4: The Siege of Gondor • Gandalf summons Pippin to see Denethor • Denethor echoes an earlier thought of Pippin’s, so at this point: Quote:
• Denethor appoints Pippin to wait on him and run errands for him • Commanded to sing, Pippin is too shy at first, because he feels that the Shire’s songs are too “rustic” for Minas Tirith (refer to discussion point 1) • Relieved from his duty, Pippin meets Beregond and they sit together on the walls where they see the dark cloud first coming out of Mordor • Faramir returns from Ithilien and is brought into the city after being rescued from the Nazgûl by Gandalf (refer to discussion point 2) • Pippin sees Faramir and recognizes an air of nobility and charisma around him (the air of Numenor?) • Faramir, Denethor, Gandalf and Pippin gather in the throne room where Faramir relates the assault of the mûmak in Ithilien and the meeting with Frodo and Sam • While he was telling his news, Faramir kept looking at Gandalf for approval; this sparks off Denethor’s complaint that Faramir is a “wizard’s pupil” and that Boromir would have brought the Ring to Minas Tirith (refer to plotline 1) • When Gandalf asks what Denethor would do with the Ring, Denethor says that he would have it hidden instead of sent into Mordor, to which Gandalf retorts: Quote:
Here, we also see Gandalf revealed as Olorin, an emissary of the Valar whose task is to care for all the world and all the coming Ages. (refer to plotline 2) • At this point, Gandalf and Denethor have a staring contest from which Pippin gets another glimpse at the tension between them. Here Denethor is presented as almost an equal of Gandalf (refer to discussion point 4) • Gandalf and Pippin have a rather interesting conversation where Gandalf, meditating on Faramir’s news, guesses that Aragorn has dared to challenge Sauron through the Palantir of Saruman. We also get a hint at future events on Gandalf’s tongue. Speaking about Gollum, he says: Quote:
• When a messenger reports that the Witch King is leading the assault on Osgiliath, Gandalf rides out to help Faramir’s retreat. • Gandalf returns and hints at his apprehension towards the Witch King (refer to discussion point 2) • Gandalf encourages Denethor to prepare a sortie to aid Faramir. • Denethor reveals that he was walking clad in mail and girt with a sword all the time, he also reveals that the idea of a sortie was not far from his mind, which goes to show that he hadn’t despaired yet. • Faramir is attacked by the Nazgûl again and Denethor sends out the sortie, led by Gandalf. • The sortie rescues Faramir and brings him back to the City, feverish and unconscious. • Denethor, seeing Faramir, goes up into the tower where (we can only assume) he used the Palantir. He comes back down with a pale face. It is at this point that he lost the will to live. • Gondor is now under siege and the gates of Minas Tirith are shut; the last people in are Ingold (the one who admitted Pippin and Gandalf earlier) and his company, who confirm the reports of an army coming forth from the Black Gate. • The besieging army digs trenches filled with fire and uses siege engines to throw balls that burst into flame behind the walls (this sounds suspiciously like bombs to me) (refer to discussion point 5) they also bombard the City with the heads of the dead. • Denethor, in madness, prepares a pyre for him and Faramir. Gandalf and Imrahil take command of the City. • Pippin, appalled at Denethor’s madness flees the House of the Dead and goes seeking Gandalf. On the way, he meets Beregond and asks him to do his best to prevent the murder that Denethor intends. Here we get the impression that Pippin has matured a lot over this chapter (refer to plotline 3) • Meanwhile, Grond (the huge battering ram) is used to batter the gates of Minas Tirith; to help it, the Witch King shouts something like an evil spell. • The Witch King enters the City where he faces Gandalf (we are told that Shadowfax is the only horse that could withstand the terror of the Witch King); just as the Witch King is about to strike at Gandalf with his flaming sword, a rooster’s crowing announces the dawn and the distant sound of horns heralds the arrival of the Riders of Rohan. So much for trying to keep it simple! Plotlines and Discussion Points Major plotlines in this chapter: 1. Denethor & Faramir: From the first moments we feel a great tension between Denethor and Faramir. Denethor is jealous of the influence Gandalf has on Faramir’s mind. When Faramir asks him whether he would’ve wanted him to die instead of Boromir, Denethor bluntly answers: “Yes.” This comment sounds very cruel to me. What do you guys think drove Denethor to such jealousy? But that said, Denethor really loves his son as we see him driven to madness by Faramir’s fever. Why do you think Denethor had such a complex relationship with Faramir? 2. Gandalf’s power: In many points in this chapter, Gandalf is revealed as the White Rider, and his staff is seen to produce a long shaft of white light that has the power to drive off even Nazgûl. Gandalf also shows good leadership qualities when he takes command of the City. The question here is, weren’t the Istari forbidden to ride “in open display of power”? Weren’t they supposed to achieve their tasks subtly? 3. Pippin’s growth: From the moment Pippin swears fealty to Denethor, we get the impression that this little Hobbit has come a long way from the sleepy Shire. Even he feels changed into a grim person, waiting on the edge of battle and wearing the livery of the tower. We also get a glimpse of how mature he has become when he almost commands Beregond to go help Faramir. What do you think caused Pippin to mature thus? Discussion points: 1. Pippin feels that his songs are too “rustic” for Minas Tirith, and well he might: the description of the hall of Denethor presents us with imposing grandeur (marble columns and lifelike statues, etc...) I wonder however whether Pippin would have felt the same way in Meduseld. When I first read the description of Meduseld, I couldn’t help but think that it has too much “country” feel to be a palace (with tapestries, stone walls and garish colors everywhere) I always thought that this contrast between Meduseld and Minas Tirith served to emphasize the contrast between the attitudes of Denethor and Theoden: the simplicity of Theoden’s halls contrast with the (now decadent) solemnity of Minas Tirith. I wonder if this is why PJ included a scene of Merry and Pippin dancing and singing in Meduseld. What do you guys think of such a comparison? 2. When Gandalf returns to Minas Tirith after riding against the Nazgûl, Pippin sees him “pale in the twilight as if his fire was spent or veiled.” Which do you think it is? Was Gandalf’s power spent or was he simply masking them from the people of Minas Tirith? If you choose the second, why? If Gandalf can face the Nazgûl, why does he appear afraid from (or at least worried about) the Witch King? 3. Gandalf says that he pities Sauron’s slaves, do you? 4. Denethor shows outstanding strength of character when he matches Gandalf stare for stare. Where does he get this strength from? I mean, this is a man who is an inch away from becoming insane and desperate… Also, why do you think Denethor harbors so much animosity towards Gandalf? 5. The missiles of the orc army sound like bombs; we have also encountered some explosive pyrotechnics courtesy of Saruman in the battle of Helm’s Deep. Is this Tolkien’s way of saying that science is evil? Or is he only talking about weapon technology? Any relations to WWII ? Last edited by Beren3000 : 11-10-2005 at 03:31 PM. |
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11-11-2005, 06:46 AM | #2 | ||
Elf Lord
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excellent summary and discussion points there beren 3000!
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yes, pity his slaves, how not? re: staring match D v G Quote:
His will is strong and has been trained and fine tuned and much used, esp in mental battle using the palantir, it has been sharpened and strengthened ... animosity ... good question .... well he knows of this ranger of the north .. who took command over Boromir - thus a northern chieftan of the royal line .... coming to supplant him and his line - he also i think despises inside his own heart and mind that gandalf still hashope when he does not .... he knows that despite his staring and duels with gandlaf that he has the greater power and to the pride of denethor this is a heavy blow .... faramir ... of course ... denethor sees gandalf as taking his sons love and mind away from him .... and his alleigance to a degree ... well gotta go ... see y'all later .. |
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11-11-2005, 07:07 AM | #3 | ||
Fëanorophobic
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11-12-2005, 03:11 AM | #4 | |
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General comment on Denethor - dontcha just want to up and smack the guy sometimes?!!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-12-2005 at 03:13 AM. |
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11-17-2005, 05:26 PM | #5 | |||||
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the animosity stems from many things... but probably the deepest is jealousy... he knows that gandalf is right, but he can not bring himself to admit this because it would be admitting his own shortcomings Quote:
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11-19-2005, 06:00 AM | #6 | ||||
Fëanorophobic
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11-29-2005, 05:42 AM | #7 | ||
Elf Lord
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Brownjenkins: Quote:
this is odd ... they have stagnated culturally, because they want to hear new songs and the cutlture of a new culture, as it were? Yes. the contrast is intended, i agree, but i think the rohirrim are more a hark back to the norse myths and the'good old days' before the horrors of war and rapid change in the 20th century, mass propaganda and genocide ... i think Tolkien is wary of arrogance and it's forms in instituions and halls, but he look favourablly on Gondor, plus of couirse they have had to become more warlike in recent years ... but to claim the culture of the shire is more vibrant .... causes me to raise an eyebrow, shall we say??? |
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11-29-2005, 10:22 AM | #8 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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the "happiest" people in middle earth (hobbits, tom bombadil, the elves of rivendell) seem to be the ones who have finally cast aside the aspirations for a "greater" culture and just decided to enjoy the moment
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12-01-2005, 09:19 PM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
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but i do not think Pippin realizes this himself as you mention ... surely that would be at odds with the (which i agree with totally) the advocacy by JRRT throughout his writings for the humanity (be it hobbit, dwarf or elf) of good honest living ... but i sill cannot see that the culture of the shire is more cultured than that of Gondor, no matter it's arrogance or war-like state or introspection ... i rather just felt Pip was uncomforatble, picking up on the undertones of Denethor and Gandalf ... and not sure that the rustic (in his own mind) songs he loved would be in place here ... ..but more at this time ... than for anything else ... i think Pip was feeling alone and unsure ... realizing that danger and doom were indeed very near and all was not so comfortable and safe, even WITH gandalf at his side ... the whole City of Minas tirith must have been a revelation, a jaw dropper.. let alone in a situation as he finds himself and the City in now ... |
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12-15-2005, 05:26 AM | #10 | |
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"My heart's right down to my toes, Mr. Pippin", Sam said, "but we aren't etten yet, and there's some stout folk with us. Whatever's in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't a wolf belly!" Some time later and a few dead wolf packs... "What did I tell you, Mr.Pippin?" said Sam, sheathing his sword. "Wolves won't get him. That was an eye-opener, and no doubt. Nearly singed the hair off my head!" Last edited by clep_web : 12-15-2005 at 06:21 AM. Reason: Removed the part about the Silmarillion |
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12-15-2005, 07:59 AM | #11 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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clep_web, the idea is mostly to focus on the material in the LOTR books themselves in these threads - while certainly we can go more in-depth into discussions about particular topics that come up in other threads - or create new threads for them.
There is a nice outline by Azalea in the main thread about the project which should help. You can contact me if you still have any other questions about it. Meanwhile, there was absolutely no problem with your previous post, in that regard. And... welcome to Entmoot!
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
12-15-2005, 01:00 PM | #12 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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12-16-2005, 05:46 AM | #13 | ||
Fëanorophobic
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TD, I think the ban applied to Sauron's servants as well as himself. Clep_web, I think that's a possible answer; probably Gandalf saw that Saruman had broken the ban and so caused a great deal of harm, so he broke the ban himself in order to restore the balance of power. P.S. Welcome to Entmoot |
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12-16-2005, 09:25 AM | #14 |
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Let's try to keep the focus on the chapter being discussed and not get too much into references in other works of Tolkien.
We can discuss the various tangents in threads of their own (hint, hint!).
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
12-18-2005, 10:32 AM | #15 | ||||
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Pity! I only came across this thread now...
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Regarding the culture question, I agree with BB. I never felt Gondor to be a stagnant city. You might call Denethor rather stagnant... shut up in his hall with only a crystal ball with which to look out. His outlook was diseased, but Minas Tirith as a whole was not stagnant. Whereas the Riders were free in their grasslands, they were stuck year after year fighting a seemingly hopeless war. That made them solemn, grave, depressing... no wonder Pippin did not feel his songs of the carefree Shire would suit them there. It would be like a nightinangle singing to Sauron. Quote:
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01-29-2006, 06:03 PM | #16 | ||||||||
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Psychological it is also quite a big blow to the strength of the people. Suddenly their own leader is unwilling to lead them, his well-loved son is dying and two new non-native-to-the-city- leaders take control. Add to that the creepy bombardment of the mutulated heads, the nazgul cries, the perpetual darkness and the frightening massiveness of ennemies before the gate and you have got one giant mental breakdown within the span of a few hours. To be in Minas Tirith during this unslaught must have been traumatic stuff of nightmares. I don't know whether I would get out with my sanity intact myself. Quote:
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01-30-2006, 05:35 AM | #17 | |
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01-30-2006, 01:36 PM | #18 | ||
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01-31-2006, 02:45 AM | #19 | |||
Fëanorophobic
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01-31-2006, 05:57 AM | #20 | |
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Since Pippin had looked in a palantir, Sauron might have directed his own palantir trying to find Pippin... and we do know that Sauron could influence what Denethor saw, so, maybe the combination of Sauron influ and Pippin happening to be so close to Minas Tirith might have helped in directing Denethor's gaze to the hobbit. But can a palantir see inside a person's mind... or does that require special powers on the part of the user? and if Denethor had such powers, maybe he used them to guess what Pippin was thinking during the meeting, and the palantir never came into it at all...
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"I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world that truly makes living worthwhile?" Death thought about it. "Cats," he said eventually. "Cats are nice." -Terry Pratchett, Sourcery Join the Harry Potter discussion, click here Last edited by Serenoli : 01-31-2006 at 06:00 AM. |
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