12-29-2002, 02:28 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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The Moral Belittling of Faramir in TTT.
How come PJ belittled Faramir by having him succumb to the lure of the ring when in the book he was adamantly against taking the ring from Frodo. In fact he stated that "if I found it by the roadside I wouldn't pick it up".
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12-29-2002, 02:37 PM | #2 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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It's dramatically effective-for the general public, which after all, hasn't read the book, or has done so only casually.
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12-29-2002, 03:07 PM | #3 |
the Shrike
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He didn't succumb to the lure of the ring - he wanted to take it to Gondor, granted, but he didn't personally succumb.
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12-29-2002, 03:12 PM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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It is because the writers either do not grasp what made the book a work of genius, or they do not care. My money is on the former.
With all do respect beard, wanting to take the ring to Gondor puts Faramir on the wrong side of the book's theme. The minute book Faramir understands that Frodo has the ring of power and is bringing it to Mordor he lets him go. If the character does anything different, the structure of the theme is severely weakened. Movie Faramir changes his mind only when he sees the problem the ring would cause in Gondor, that is pragmatism, not at all the same motivation. I ranted more on this in the "mean Faramir" thread. This Faramir change cannot be defended, Jackson really, really blew this character. This ranks with the elvish C.P.R. Frodo was given at the ford in the first film. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 12-29-2002 at 04:14 PM. |
12-29-2002, 06:12 PM | #5 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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They're setting their boy up?
Maybe they only wanted Aragorn to have the power to rise above temptation, to make him seem heads above all other "weak men", thus the "KING"! ? I dunno!
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12-29-2002, 07:41 PM | #6 | ||||
Enting
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Faramir will Return
My feeling is that the character of Faramir suffered from cut scene syndrome. In other words there is a good chance that scenes may be added back into the Special Edition TTT. I have heard of at least one cut scene that may have made all the difference with the way this character was viewed.
(The reported scene that was filmed included these switched lines from Sam to Faramir ) Quote:
Minas Tirith Language Warning
Faramir, Gandalf, and Denethor Language Warning
Faramir and Pippin Language Warning |
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01-15-2003, 03:53 PM | #7 |
Orli's lil fan
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i didn't like the movie version of Faramir, he was too mean
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01-15-2003, 04:23 PM | #8 |
Elven Warrior
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I think i heard PJ say somewhere, that they had been setting the ring up as this powerful 'character' almost, that made everyone around it want it so bad. And Galadriel and Gandalf both could 'barely' resist it And to have this simple mortal totally refuse the ring would seem weirdly inconsistant in the movie and something like that...I cant remember what else he said. bleah..
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01-15-2003, 08:34 PM | #9 |
High King of Númenórë
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Well, even though it isn't the Faramir we know from the book, he still becomes that with the simple line of "Then it is forfeit, release them!" I think that simple line separates him from Boromir and from the path everyone thought he was going down, and it also brings back the Faramir we know and love...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
01-15-2003, 09:16 PM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
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I think Faramir suffered from one of Jackson's "last minute change of heart" formulas that are running thorugh this film. He has ruined (In my opinion) many characters so far with this.
Aragorn not wanting to be king Treebeard not wanting to fight Elrond not wanting Arwen to be with Aragorn Arwen leaving middle earth Faramir wanting to send the ring to Gondor Elrond needing Galadriel's motivational speech It's all very predictable and very lame. |
01-15-2003, 09:26 PM | #11 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Never, in a million years, would I have "predicted" any of that stuff!
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01-15-2003, 09:28 PM | #12 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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01-15-2003, 09:36 PM | #13 |
Elven Warrior
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I thought my last post was pretty clear.
Jackson is trying to make it seem like Arwen has taken her father's advice and is leaving middle earth. Aragorn also says this to Eowyn on the way to Helm's Deep. "she is sailing to the undying lands with all that is left of her kin" To the best of my knowledge I saw the same film as you Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 01-15-2003 at 09:43 PM. |
01-15-2003, 09:53 PM | #14 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Thanks for clearing it up
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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01-17-2003, 12:48 AM | #15 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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01-17-2003, 12:52 AM | #16 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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01-17-2003, 01:37 AM | #17 | ||
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01-17-2003, 12:35 PM | #18 | ||
Marshal of the Eastmark
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Quote:
To the original post: Why put a question on the message board like this? "Why did (person wh's not here) do (something I disagree with)?" None of us can answer for him. All you'll get is opinions from those who don't like the characterization and conjecture from those who think they understand the reason for the change. And since you probably understand the reason for the change, that's a moot point, isn't it? So that leaves this as an opinion thread on the change of Faramir's lines and addition of Osgiliath. Use the search button and you will find that we've got a half dozen of those already. Almost everyone here has opinionated on those threads, so now we have to either repeat our selves in this one or not get to participate. Well, I'll repeat myself. I don't like the Osgiliath scene. I wish they had shown Faramir helping Gandalf in the first movie. Once Faramir knows that this is the One Ring that Gandalf was researching, and that he sent these Hobbits to destroy it ("sent" is from Faramir's point of view), he gives them provisions and warmth in an otherwise bleak setting. Light moments in dark times. That's Tolkien. And I will conjecture: But PJ must have wanted people to see with our own eyes what happens when a city falls to Sauron's forces. It may also have served to balance Theoden's statement that Gondor would not come to his aid - they couldn't! And it may also serve to validate Boromir's blustering "by the blood of our people are your lands kept free" or whatever they had him say. In cinema they have the edict "show don't tell", so I am guessing that PJ felt that all the statements by Faramir or Boromir or later by Denethor would carry a lot more weight if we got to actually see Osgiliath. Too bad he had to alter Faramir, for me, in order to do it, because I really care about Eowyn and right now it seems she's going to settle for second best, which is a kind of cage.
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cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 01-17-2003 at 12:37 PM. |
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01-17-2003, 12:56 PM | #19 |
Radically Tolkienited
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The Faramir change wasn't that bad. Didn't Faramir say in the book "Here I have you in the wild two halfings, a host of men at my call and the Ring of Rings...a chance for Faramir captain of Gondro to show his quality" I thinkt hat during that bit he is contemplating about stealing the Ring...it's just that his GOODNESS over comes it...as it does in the movie. Faramir makes the SAME dicision in the movie as he does in the book... that is to let Frodo and Sam free to continue their quest...it just took longer for him to make it in the movie. So essentially Faramir was hardly changed at all...save that the lure of the Ring was stronger on him than it was in the book...he finally let's Frodo go.
Also if you think about it it's setting us up for ROTK...Denethor hates Faramir which is probably why Faramir chaptured Sam and Frodo...to impress and get recognition from his father, but when he realized that the Ring was evil (which was something Boromir DID NOT do, making Faramir better as far as values were concerned) he FORFEITS his LIFE to set them free...he's got the same values as his book character...it just took awhile for them to show up. I think that Arwen is going to Minas Tirith. Did anybody notice the look on Elronds face? AND did you notice that there were not MALE elves in the train? Just female elves. So I think that those elves were Arwens maids and attendants. Cheers, Sam
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01-17-2003, 02:33 PM | #20 |
Truest of Friends
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You know what I like?
In Osgiliath, Sam has this line: "It's all wrong, Mr. Frodo. We shouldn't be here at all!" Well of course they shouldn't; they didn't go there!
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