04-29-2006, 02:30 PM | #1 |
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Why didn't Sauron use the Numenorean army?
Towards the end of the Second Age, the Numenoreans had become a very formidable military force. When Ar Pharazon confronted Sauron, Sauron’s own servants deserted him and he was taken as a prisoner to Numenor. After a few years Sauron gained control of Pharazon and through him the Numenorean military. My question is: Why didn’t Sauron use this army against his enemies in Middle Earth, primarily the Elves and Faithful Numenoreans? The Numenoreans in Ar Pharazon’s time surely could have destroyed or enslaved them. Instead, Sauron willingly destroyed his new forces by sending them against the Valar. He knew quite well that this would be their end. Why would he do this?
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04-29-2006, 07:05 PM | #2 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Interesting topic, CAB. I don't think it has ever been discussed before.
IMO, Ar-Pharazon, whatever strong Sauron's influence might have been, never became his slave. The King did what HE wanted to do - and he wanted immortality and in that he was of like mind with most of the populatiion. There was nothing for him to gain, if he had attacked Gil-Galad. As for the Faithful, they were keeping their heads low, both in Nimenor and in ME. Never was there an open rebellion, hence there was really no need for military action against the Faithful. Gradually they would have been exterminated one by one. Now, by the time of the Downfall, Ar-Pharazon was already 200 years old. His predecessor, Tar-Palantir the Faithful, lived only to 220 years, while his own father, Gimilkhâd, died at 200! The King had NO time to waste hunting elves n ME. He had to act before the "Gift" of Eru reached him. |
04-29-2006, 08:26 PM | #3 | |
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04-29-2006, 09:48 PM | #4 | |||
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04-30-2006, 05:38 AM | #5 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I think the main reason is that Sauron wanted Númenor utterly destroyed. He didn't at the moment care much about the Elves and other people in Middle-earth. He could deal with them later. He didn't want to control Númenor and its people, he wanted to see them crippled, humbled and cast down. I guess his pride was majorly stung when Ar-Pharazon outdid him in power.
I think he saw the corruption of the Númenoreans he wrought, the fact that he was able to send Ar-Pharazon to Valinor to defy the Valar from whom the Númenoreans had even received their own land, as a enormous victory. I doubt he had forseen the magnitude and swiftness of Eru's punishment or he wouldn't have stayed in Númenor. Unless Ar-Pharazon didn't completely trust him after all and wanted to make sure Sauron was still where he left the maia when he returned from his campaign against Valinor. But it still stands that Sauron managed to destroy a very prosperous and advanced civilisation and reduced a mighty people to exiles and cast-aways, much diminished in power, knowledge and technology. While Gondor and Arnor still were great kingdoms, they were but a small remnant of what once was, and they would never again equal the likes of Númenor. With the destruction of Númenor Sauron successfully made sure the might of Númenor could never stand again in the way of his dominion.
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04-30-2006, 06:15 AM | #6 | |
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04-30-2006, 08:11 AM | #7 |
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A matter of debate, indeed. But while the Faitfull were indeed crucial in defeating Sauron later on, it took much more effort. If I'm not mistaken, the Last Alliance where they laid siege on the Barad-dur took years and only with the help of other races and nations did it succeed. So IMO, if the Faithfull had had the strengths which Númenor before the fall had, Sauron's might wouldn't have stood a chance.
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04-30-2006, 09:08 AM | #8 | |||||
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04-30-2006, 12:17 PM | #9 | |
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But best not to forget that even before the coming of Sauron to Númenor the relations between Middle-earth and Númenor had already deteriorated severely. Elves were called spies of the Valar and those who welcomed them in Númenor risked punishment. Even Tar-Palantir's attempt to turn the tide was in vain. So the chances of them uniting against Sauron were, IMO, small. Númenor was most likely the biggest threat at the time. Perhaps the only one apart from the Valar that could defeat Sauron single-handedly. But in the end, it was the destruction of Númenor that released the Faithful from the oppression of their King and allowed them to re-ally them with the Elves as of old, exactly that which eventually costed Sauron dearly in the battle with the Last Alliance. Now that is what I call an oversight. In this I spy the hand of Eru, that while Númenor was lost and Men dimished, and the Valar laid down their stewardship, Sauron too was caught in its fall and lost his fair form. And from the destruction of Númenor his downfall would come in the end. And it brought Elves and Men back together again, at least for a while.
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04-30-2006, 02:07 PM | #10 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-30-2006, 05:48 PM | #11 | ||
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I believe people tend to overestimate Sauron's influence on Ar-Pharazon. The only things Sauron achieved was making the Numenoreans worship Melkor and attack Valinor - both things for one goal - gaining immortality. That was the only thing they really wanted, not some war with the ME Elves. Sauron couldn't really use the King and his army as he wished: that's why he destroyed them.
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And I think Telcontar_Dunedain is right. The next ruler would be MIRIEL - not as a widow of Ar-Pharazon, but as a daughter of Tar-Palantir. And after her the Sceptre would have passed to the next in line - this person should have been appointed heir long ago and probably left behind when the Fleet sailed - just in case. There was later the custom in Gondor to leave a Heir to the crown behind (Like Ondoher and Faramir his son-see UT) Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 04-30-2006 at 05:51 PM. |
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04-30-2006, 05:59 PM | #12 | |
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05-01-2006, 05:06 AM | #13 | ||||||
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05-01-2006, 05:25 AM | #14 |
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Another interesting thread, chaps.
My view would be that Sauron was so totally blown away by the power of the Numenoreans that he felt he needed to bring about their destruction. Just looking at the archaeological evidence (Erech, Orthanc, Argonath, a single curse bringing an Army of the Dead back to serve an heir 3,000 years later, etc etc) of a remnant of the Numenoreans, they must have been enormously powerful at their peak. So Sauron's gob was truly smacked, and any thought of physically dominating the Numenoreans was vanquished. Sauron knew (IMO) also that Men could not be utterly broken in spirit. Did Hurin not defy his master for years? Maybe they might turn to evil, but they would still ultimately go their own way. So, if he retained any hope of being Lord of ME, he would have to destroy them. Given that, the plan of getting the Valar to destroy them instead was pretty genius IMO. |
05-01-2006, 06:57 AM | #15 |
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On a side-note, I have to say it really feels good to be able to participate into a new Tolkien-discussion again. I almost forgot how fun it used to be. Thanks guys!
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05-01-2006, 07:27 AM | #16 |
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Damright. Three cheers for Gordis, CAB, TD, Landroval and all the rest.
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05-01-2006, 03:30 PM | #17 | ||||||
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(3262-3310 Sauron seduces the King and corrupts the Númenoreans. Tale of Years) First Sauron made himself really useful. Quote:
Sauron used subtlety. First he made the King and the Island worship Melkor, Then he cut the White Tree and built a Temple where "with spilling of blood and torment and great wickedness, men made sacrifice to Melkor that he should release them from Death" But "Death did not depart from the land, rather it came sooner and more often, and in many dreadful guises." Here I think Sauron felt like a trickster who promised the people immortality, but couldn't keep his promise. By 3310 it had become evident: Quote:
Sauron knew the only way to make the King immortal: the Rings of Power. But he had none with him in Valinor save the One. And he couldn't travel to ME to get himself one of the 9 or the 7. Perhaps he also didn't want the hated King forever around as one of his nazgul. But still, as CAB said, Sauron felt he must direct the King’s anger somewhere away from himself. The Maia was ever resourceful. Here he revealed that the only way to gain immortality was to attack Valinor. Thus he planned death for Ar-Pharazon and for the majority of able-bodied male population, including those of the house of Elros. And the latter part was very important, indeed. Quote:
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So in 3310 he turned from Plan A (to rule Pharazon and Numenor at the height of its might) to much more humble plan B (to destroy the King and all his army and to rule a much weakened, but more pliable Numenor). So, as I see it, Sauron's greatest mistakes were underestimating Eru, underestimating the Numenoreans and not taking some spare Rings with him when he came to the island. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 05-01-2006 at 03:34 PM. |
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05-01-2006, 03:42 PM | #18 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-01-2006, 05:38 PM | #19 | |
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I hardly doubt that after a premature death of Ar-Pharazon, the Faithful would be able to make her the Queen. And would they even bother to support her? She stopped being Faithful long ago and repented only in the very last moment. |
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05-01-2006, 05:38 PM | #20 | ||||
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