09-25-2005, 01:42 PM | #1 | |||||
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LotR book V, ch.1: Minas Tirith
Brief summary
This chapter covers the day in which Pippin and Gandalf arrives at MinasTirith. In Minas Tirith Gandalf and Pippin are heading straight to the hall of Denethor, but not before Gandalf has warned Pippin about the power and shrewdness of the Steward. We get the first warning that Aragorn perhaps will not be welcomed by Denethor if he is to come to Minas Tirith. Pippin offers his service to Denethor and swears loyalty to him, remembering Boromir who died to defend him and Merry. Then Denethor begins an interrogation of Pippin about his journey with the company and Boromir's death. At last Pippin is released, but Gandalf has worked himself up and there follows a quarrel and a mental battle between him and Denethor. Pippin is left by himself as Gandalf goes to meet the captains of Gondor, but he soon finds new friends in Beregond, one of the Guards of the Tower, and his 10-year old son Bergil. From them he learns much about the ways and customs of the city, and of its old history as well as the events from the recent days. But he also has much to tell, and his stories from his journey together with his humbleness and courtesy soon make the Men respect him, in spite of his childish appearance. In the evening Bergil and Pippin watches the armed forces from the outskirts of Gondor march into the city. They are bold, strong men, but too few. We get the first glimpse of Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth. At last Gandalf returns, and the chapter ends gloomily with his prediction of the dawnless day, echoing Pippin's earlier comment: Quote:
“Pippin looked out”.... with these initial words the perspective of the narrative is set. Everything that happens during the day spanned by this chapter is seen through the eyes of the young Hobbit. A nice little turn that allows us to know the ordinary people in the city of Minas Tirith, primarily represented by Beregond and his son Bergil, instead of following Gandalf in his meeting with the captains and other people of high rank. Pippin is as ignorant as we, the readers, are, and when he gets to learn about the ways and customs of the city, we learn with him. We see everything for the first time and we are filled with curiosity. We see the dead, white tree in the courtyard of the citadel, and we wonder with Pippin about the significance of the tree. Following Pip around is also a good way to provide the chapter with some lightness, to balance the dark and heavy atmosphere in Denethor's hall and the approaching war from the East. Pippin has grown much mentally since he set out from the Shire, but he has not come of age yet and has not lost all of his childish attitude. The Steward and the steward The clash of Denethor and Gandalf provides for the drama in this chapter. Denethor is prideful but also poweful, and not many people in Middle Earth would challenge Gandalf as he does. Is he aware of what Gandalf's origin? It is interesting to read Pippin's observations of the two men as they are having their little mental fight: Quote:
While Denethor seems to care only about the realm of Gondor and especially the city of Minas Tirith, Gandalf is primarily concerned about the whole of Middle Earth, aiming to preserve at least some worthy things, and the defence of Minas Tirith is just a way to carry out this task. Is Denethor really capable of reading other people's mind? Quote:
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Another question is, did Gandalf know or suspect that Denethor had made contact with Sauron? The Steward and the King Not referring to Denethor and Aragorn, but Denethor and Theoden. Denethor did not make a good first impression on this reader, and I think he was not intended to. He comes across as both rude and cunning, especially in his treatment of Pippin, and his grief over Boromir is not sufficient to excuse him. Quote:
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09-25-2005, 01:47 PM | #2 | |||||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Memory of past ages
This is perhaps what makes this chapter bear a feeling of sadness – the hints of the greatness of Gondor and its main city Osgiliath in former times, and the references to Númenor and the ancestors of Denethor and Aragorn. But now it is clear that decay is dominant. Their Númenorean blood are mingled with that of lesser men, and the people are basing their pride upon memories and tales of the ages past. Only half of the houses are inhabitated, and children seems to be too few to keep up the population. Most people have none or very little knowledge of things that goes on outside their borders. The Gondorians display almost an Elvish behaviour here. Why do they not have children? What is it with these people that makes them seemingly unable to look forward, to shape the future, to explore the world? Preparing for war The people of Gondor are used to a life in the relative proximity of Mordor – I think we may assume that having the Enemy so close is why warriors are held in so high esteem there. We may also consider what this constant threat and reminding of the Shadow does to their mindset. Beregond says: Quote:
If Beregond is representative for the men, as we might think he is, their mood is swinging between high hope and the shadow of Doom. Quote:
Favourites At the beginning of the chapter Pippin is reminded of the palantir and his experience with the Dark Lord, and he shudders while Quote:
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Another favourite is the description of Minas Tirith - the city in the morning as seen by Pip for the first time. It's marvellous. And at last, Pippin's speech to the guards at the outer wall: Quote:
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09-25-2005, 02:01 PM | #3 |
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I know my intro has not covered all aspects of this chapter - if so it would have been at least twice as long. Feel free to talk about other issues than those I've put forward.
This has not been one of my favourite chapters, but working with it for this project I have discovered things that I had not catched before. I guess Tolkien always has something in store for you, no matter how many times you read his books.
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09-26-2005, 03:47 AM | #4 | |
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Nice job, Artanis. Let's hope we can inject some life into the discussion.
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Later on, we learn that he knows more of Gandalf's plans than he might have been expected to find out through the use of the palantir. So, I would say a bit of both. It puts Faramir's triumph over the temptation of the Ring into a different light. |
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09-27-2005, 03:20 AM | #5 | |
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Thank you Gaffer.
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09-27-2005, 05:31 AM | #6 | |
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Artanis
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*drum roll* 'the passing of the grey company' ... where, i beleive there is just the slightest possibility of discussing this! thanks for doing such a good job on 'Minas tirith', i particularly like your views on Pippin! I think it is suggested that despite the lessening of the Numenorean blood over many thousands (or many hundreds?) of years in the South ... Denethor has by some genetic or (tolkien blodd line / fate if you prefer) chance inherited ( and no doubt at all in my mind - worked hard to hone and sharpen) some of the far-seeing perception of the Numenoreans and those of high lineage and thus of the Elves. I think it clear it is suggested this is rarer and rarer in Gondor as it declines, but i also suggest that Denenthor was unusually perceptive even for some of the High Kings of old ... Denethor was not descended in unbroken lineage from Elendil and was not master of the stone. Therefore he was not the rightful owner of the stone as was Aragorn. However his mind would be more adapted and finer tuned to its uses. I think sauruman had been using the orthanc stone for MUCH longer then denethor (probably long time before he was even born) and had more time to be corrupted: though even saruman was not totally enthralled. For Denethor: he also had the motive combined with pride (indeed the fulcrum of how Sauron would attempt to twist him via the palantir) but he also had as his motive his Duty and the protection of his people and the will to fight Sauron. Denethor was a great leader and steward until his mind was finally corrupted by pride and despair (mainly by sauron via the palantir: i suspect even Sauron secretly respected him in terms of his sight, will and perception) ...although Denethor had always been a proud man from all accounts (here we see a parable from JRRT: pride and cunning: denethor and sauruman ... pride and cunning equals folly and corruption, lest tempered by goodness) As gandalf or the elves can bend their thought or their sight outwards so can the kin of Numenor, to varying degrees, we have seen this many times ... Nay denethor could not master the stone, only its true rightful owner had the chance (if he had the power or force of will) to do so. BTW: for a light-hearted and fun alternate take on this chapter: see the lyrd of the rings in rpg: by a fateful chance tolkien would be proud of we are doing the alternate version of this chapter even now *ghostly clear voice fades out back into the west* best for now ... lots more to discuss in this chapter though, well done, best BB |
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09-27-2005, 06:57 AM | #7 | |||
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Insightful post there BB!
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09-27-2005, 12:15 PM | #8 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-28-2005, 03:38 AM | #9 |
Elf Lord
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I don't agree with that assessment. Denethor had foreseen the attack and called for reinforcements from throughout Gondor as well as from Rohan. The city was well prepared.
He only lost his marbles at the very end during the siege, when he was shown the black fleet sailing up the river and it seemed hopeless that Rohan would be able to make any difference. |
09-28-2005, 07:00 AM | #10 | ||
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i have always wondered about this ... (though i don't doubt Gandalf did care technically about all middle earth) but did not gandalf appear to care mainly about the western part of middle earth .... were there not other istari out there in the east? Quote:
Certainly suspect ... he knew that denethor had longsight and must have wondered about a palantir ... especially as Minas tirith abounded with rumours of Denethor going up to a high room at night and seeing lights and whispers that the lord fought mental duels with him ... |
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10-11-2005, 09:47 AM | #11 | |
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Last edited by Serenoli : 10-12-2005 at 10:45 PM. |
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10-13-2005, 03:02 AM | #12 | |
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10-13-2005, 03:05 AM | #13 | |
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11-17-2005, 04:57 PM | #14 | |||
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*still catching up*
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Although he is not wrong in the assumption that it will be at Minas Tirith where the heaviest and the first blow will fall, I think his pride robbed him of more potential allies along the road. Denethor wasn't one of my favourite characters but I think he was Tolkien's way of showing that not all good guys, all 'high', wise and strong men have to be likeable. It gives another shade of grey between the sides of good and evil, I think. I also thought it provided it a nice parallell between Boromir and his father. Both were impressive, noble men, but both are not immediately likeable either. Quote:
I'm thinking also that with certain boys, they would have refused to go and hide 'with the girls'. I gather some fathers thought it easier to allow their sons to remain behind rather than have their sons sneak out and hide until the carts and wagons with refugees have departed. [more later]
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11-29-2005, 04:55 PM | #15 | |
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I disagree that "his pride robbed him of more potential allies along the road." What allies? Denethor has sent his ELDEST son, the Captain of the White Tower, whose presence was crucial in the time of war, to Imladris to SEEK HELP. Do you really believe that he sought only the clarification of the dream? No! In that case he would have sent a messenger and a letter. Would Boromir refuse if a REAL MILITARY HELP from Imladris, or Lorien, or the Dunedain, or the Lonely Mountain were offered?? Of course he would have gladly accepted! Only Denethor was wise and learned, he knew the Elves will give no help. Perhaps only some magic help? But Denethor is eager even for that. Boromir says himself "But still we fight on, holding all the west shores of Anduin; and those who shelter behind us give us praise, if ever they hear our name: much praise but little help. Only from Rohan now will any men ride to us when we call. `In this evil hour I have come on an errand over many dangerous leagues to Elrond: a hundred and ten days I have journeyed all alone. But I do not seek allies in war. The might of Elrond is in wisdom not in weapons, it is said." But when Aragorn asks him "Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?' Boromir is confounded, as that was NOT what he sought. `I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meaning of a riddle,' answered Boromir proudly. ...'For though I do not ask for aid, we need it. It would comfort us to know that others fought also with all the means that they have.' Denethor was desperate for any help and any alliance. But none was offered. |
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12-15-2005, 06:17 PM | #16 | |
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But yes, in my opinion Boromir indeed came to Imladris for council and advise, not for troops or weapons, as the quote you gave seem to indicate as well. In hind sight it might be considered somewhat of a risk to send Boromir, the Captain of the White Tower half across the continent for the answer on a riddle but perhaps that shows how much importance the people of Gondor gave to this sort of vision and prophecy. Maybe how much of their hope they had invested in these words. I suppose it would stand to reason that in these dark times military aid was sought. But since it is far from clear from the text that Boromir came to ask that of the Elves (my memory can fool me, so please, feel free to correct me with quotes on this), I'm going to assume it didn't happen. I personally dislike making big assumptions about things that are not mentioned. I like my stories simple and straigh forward. What's it called? Face-value? But I suppose my statement about Denethor's pride costing him allies is perhaps moot already. Regardless of the fact Gondor at this point only had a military ally in Rohan, there wasn't much help to receive from elsewhere anyway. Everyone was at risk of being attacked. Even Denethor's own Gondorean lords sent what men they could spare to Minas Tirith, but no more. If we take the appendices into account where it is mentioned that Lothorien, Erebor and others were also attacked in the same time frame as Minas Tirith, it would istand to reason.
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