02-13-2003, 04:24 AM | #1 | |
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Did Aragorn know about the Balrog in Moria?
On the quest, Gandalf wanted the Fellowship to go through the mines, but Aragorn was against it. He warned Gandalf specifically:
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Aragorn also mentions that he had been in Moria before. On which occasion was that? Did he learn about the danger at that time?
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02-13-2003, 06:19 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Well, Aragorn was prone to foresight, but he may have known that something bad was in Moria without knowing exactly what it was.
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02-13-2003, 07:40 AM | #3 |
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I think he did, that is why he didn't want to go there. I also feel that he felt the Balrog was wearing Gandalf's name. I wish there was more explanation to his first visit, like there was for Gandalf"s.
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02-13-2003, 11:15 AM | #4 | |||||
Enting
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He knew of great danger in Moria, obviously - everyone did, because of the fall of Durin.
He did NOT know there was a balrog, though. There was no "foresight" involved, nor did he expect the terror to be Gandalf's defeat. Aragorn simply feared the terror in Moria, and knew, as leader, that Gandalf would be the leader in the fight against any such terror. Only Gandalf sensed the magnitude of the danger in Moria, but he too was unaware of the balrog. Aragorn didn't even know the word 'balrog.' He was clearly not familiar with the term as he was unable to give that name when giving the account of what happened to Galadriel. Quote:
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02-13-2003, 12:08 PM | #5 |
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I stand corrected! Thanks!
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02-13-2003, 01:27 PM | #6 |
Enting
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He does in the movie... saruman says in thought to him something like "the dwarves delved too deep and too greedily. You know what they awoke in the darkness."
Thats just the movie though, doesnt happen in the book. |
02-13-2003, 01:29 PM | #7 | ||
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Anyway, Legolas' well-known wailing "Ai! Ai! A Balrog! A Balrog has come!", and Gandalf's "A Balrog. Now I understand" should make the name of the creature clear for everyone present. I don't know why Aragorn didn't name it in front of Galadriel and Celeborn.
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02-13-2003, 01:38 PM | #8 | |
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Aranwe, I think in the movie Saruman said that 'in thought' to Gandalf himself, and not to Aragorn. Am I right?
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02-13-2003, 04:37 PM | #9 |
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So you think Aragorn had a premonition, or just a general pychic feeling of trouble for Gandalf..... I was very curious about Aragorn's first trip through Moria. It seems that Gandalf does all the guiding. Is anymore said about what Aragorn was doing in Moria? Could it have been when he was looking for Gollum, or something much earlier?
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02-13-2003, 05:03 PM | #10 |
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If Gandalf didnt know Aragorn didnt
Look here
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!' Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane! ' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face. 'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. `What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.' Gandalf only at this point finds out that its a Balrog, he knew something was there but he didnt even know it was a Balrog until he saw it. So dare I even ask you if Gandalf didn't know what are the chances Aragorn would know? davie the dunadan Anlya ëa i Arandor i valaar i alcar oioaroio : násie :
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02-13-2003, 05:38 PM | #11 |
Enting
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Yes Artanis, that's what I meant. I forgot to write who I was talking about
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02-13-2003, 05:47 PM | #12 | |||
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Aranwe, thanks.
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02-13-2003, 06:10 PM | #13 | |
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Like I said, Aragorn was aware that Durin's entire kingdom fell to whatever terror was dormant beneath the mountains - something that could destroy a whole dwarven kingdom must've been quite terrible. It was obvious to anyone who knew the history. I think you're reading too much into Aragorn's statement - he was just concerned. He said it to Gandalf (not Frodo) because Gandalf was the leader. Frodo wouldn't have faced the balrog unless he was the last left, since the other eight of the Fellowship were sent solely to defend Frodo. If the other eight fell, I (and Aragorn, probably) thought Frodo would have no chance on his own anyway - for one, he didn't know the way. Thus another reason Aragorn probably said it to Gandalf - if Gandalf couldn't defeat it, he doubted both the ability of the group without Gandalf to make it past the terror, and, if successful in evading the terror, the ability of the group to make it to Mount Doom.
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02-13-2003, 07:02 PM | #14 | ||||
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02-13-2003, 07:16 PM | #15 |
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Aragorn probably knew of danger in Moria, after all, he had been there before, I think. But I'm not sure if he knew there was a Balrog or not. He does have the gift of foresight, I think, so maybe he not only didn't want to enter Moria because of the Balrog, but maybe he was also concerned for Gandalf's safety because maybe Aragorn foresaw his death. But, if he did know of the Balrog and the "death" of Gandalf, wouldn't he have told him? Everyone knew of the danger of going through Moria, and Aragorn was no different. I guess that because he went through before, he didn't want to have anyone's life taken or experience the terrors of Moria again.
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02-13-2003, 08:18 PM | #16 | ||
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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02-13-2003, 10:54 PM | #17 |
Enting
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Why is it hard to believe that? The evidence says he didn't know the word. Whether it is hard to believe or not, it is the only opinion on the matter that can be supported by Tolkien's writing.
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02-15-2003, 09:38 PM | #18 | |
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Aragorn's warning to Gandalf can probably be ascribed to an incidence of the same "foresight of his kindred" that suddenly came to him in the story of Arwen and Aragorn in Appendix A when he told Elrond "the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth." The same sort of thing that happened when he told Éomer they would meet again, even if all the foes of Mordor lay between them.
While he likely knew the word "Balrog" from his education in Rivendell and had a mental image of what one was, and perhaps even had heard first-hand descriptions of them from some of the Noldor, he (and everybody else) never expected to personally confront one in "modern" Middle-Earth, especially in such a crisis situation where the leadership of the company would fall on him. What a shock -- that would explain his description to Galadriel of what he had seen, even though he had heard both Gandalf and Legolas call it a Balrog. Like he was still coming to grips with the shock of confronting a nightmare suddenly come to life. One wonders what his trip through Moria must have been like, and why it had been taken. Maybe he hadn't been able to cross the mountain pass because Caradhras was in a foul mood? And likely it was in the dark, too, unless he somehow managed to keep a torch burning all those miles. Then there were the Orcs, the foul water; the rocky, treacherous paths -- quite enough there to make it a foul memory for him, without meeting up with the Balrog, though perhaps it had come near him, and he had sensed the presence of Evil without knowing what it was. Who knows?
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02-15-2003, 10:03 PM | #19 | ||
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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02-16-2003, 07:33 AM | #20 | |
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