07-23-2011, 07:55 AM | #1 |
Hobbit
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When does Cirdan leave ME?
Yeah, I always wondered that. He leaves ME when the Last Ship departs, but when is that? I also read somewhere that Celeborn sailed the last ship to Valinor, but does Cirdan go with him then?
This confuses me a bit, haha. :') |
07-23-2011, 09:37 AM | #2 |
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Hello Explosive Smile! Welcome to Entmoot. We love our members from Belgium!
Offhand, I don't recall if anything is stated about just when Cirdan left. I might guess when Sam left. I get the impression that Legolas left pretty much on his own (with Gimli) - and he didn't go to the Havens, but just built his own ship in Ithilien (with help?) and set sail, after King Elessar died. So I don't imagine that Legolas needed Cirdan's aid, while I think Sam would. There is some debate about whether Celeborn left at all - or if he just stayed in Middle Earth. I think Cirdan would have certainly gone, though I'm not sure when. My best guess is with Sam. About 60 years after the departure of Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Elrond & Galadriel - and about 60 years before Legolas and Gimli.
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07-23-2011, 12:40 PM | #3 | |
Hobbit
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Quote:
Yeah, with Sam is a good possibility, because when Aragorn dies, Arwen says to him that there isn't a ship anymore to bring her to Valinor. Mmm.. I think Celeborn sailed to Valinor to see Galadriel again. That sounds likely to me, but I don't know this for sure, hehe. |
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07-23-2011, 12:48 PM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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'Last Ship' seems a bit open to interpretation, and possibly this matter is meant to be left a little vague, but Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age arguably implies that 'Last Ship' (or however it's spelled there) refers to the ship that Gandalf, Frodo, Elrond, Galadriel... and so on, sailed on... with Shadowfax. I think the description refers to a 'last ship' and continues with something like: white was that ship and long was it a-building; and long it awaited... something something... generally referring to the events which lead to this notable departure of Middle-Earth (Galadriel and so on).
I think Cirdan sailed then. Why wait? There's a late essay that speaks to his desire to sail West in the First Age; though granted he did wait beyond the end of that Age, so that only goes so far. Anyway I really see no great reason for Celeborn to have stayed forever, and I think certain text implies that not only did he sail (though when was not known specifically), but that with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days. Cirdan should have living memory of the Elder Days... but granted (again) so should Treebeard for example! Regarding Celeborn, it's also interesting to note Arwen's (or Aragorn's?) reference to the garden(s?) of Rivendell, where none now walk... or something like that, in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. ... which might raise the Elladan, Elrohir question too Sorry, my books are not handy at the moment for actual quotes, which I know are certainly much better than trying to remember them here. |
07-23-2011, 12:55 PM | #5 |
Hobbit
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Yeah, I also thought about that.. It's logical that Cirdan sailed to Valinor with Elrond and the rest of the ringbearers, but I read somewhere that some people still say that he still lives in the Grey Havens, tough I don't know where exactly I read that. (Sorry for my vague explanation, haha.)
I agree about Celeborn. (: I think he wanted to see his wife again and that he didn't want to stay forever in ME. Maybe he left with the sons of Elrond? Could be true. |
07-23-2011, 12:55 PM | #6 | |
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07-23-2011, 01:07 PM | #7 | |
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Quote:
There are examples of 'intended variation' or 'purposed confusion', or some better term that explains what I mean (say the competing stories of the Elessar jool for example), and sometimes I think this might be one of them. Or something I'll have to check the books again! Varnafinde, I still think it's Rivendell in the quote I'm thinking of, but yes I'll have to check if someone else doesn't first. |
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07-24-2011, 09:53 AM | #8 | ||
Elven Warrior
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OK, I found an older post of mine. Sorry for the length and some repetition, but here I actually quoted some sources!
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Galin : 08-01-2011 at 08:00 AM. |
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07-24-2011, 02:55 PM | #9 |
Hobbit
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I like the idea more of Cirdan sailing with Gandalf to Valinor, don't really know why exactly... Maybe because Cirdan would lead a very lonely life in the Havens, because the most of his people would be gone then. That touches my soft side, haha. :')
But if Cirdan had sailed with Gandalf to Valinor, Sam would have a problem, don't you think? Sam can't build a boat on his own to sail beyond the Sea, in my opinion, he needs someone's help... But if Cirdan is gone, there's nobody to help him. Well, we can discuss this over and over, but we will never know this for sure, I think. |
07-24-2011, 05:37 PM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
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I would at least add my opinion that Cirdan himself need not be around for any and all ships to be constructed.
For example, there was a haven in the South from which some of the Elves of Lorien had set sail, and Legolas appears to have had his ship made well enough away from Mithlond. And I think there were craftsmen (Elves) other than Cirdan in Mithlond, perhaps apprentices whom he had instructed for many years. |
07-25-2011, 02:25 PM | #11 | |
Hobbit
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Quote:
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07-28-2011, 12:53 PM | #12 |
Elf Lord
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Good thread.
I think the passing to the Fourth Age and the Dominion of Men is important to Cirdan's mission, which would lean towards "with Galadriel, Elrond et al". I like to think of Cirdan hanging around till all the High Elves had departed, though. Legolas wasn't a High Elf, of course. |
07-31-2011, 01:26 PM | #13 |
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Welcome, ASmileThatExplodes! (Another Belgian, neat! )
If Cirdan had left at the same time as the other Ringbearers, someone at the Grey Havens must still have been making boats in the Fourth Age. And crewing them. Even if Legolas built his boat elsewhere, Sam did go to the Grey Havens, and I can't see him making a boat all on his own and then sailing it over the Straight Road either. If Sam, Celeborn and possibly Elrond's sons still had to have a ship that could take them West, was Cirdan's job really finished after the Ringbearers sailed? So if someone was still building ships in the Grey Havens after their departure, (and so it seems to be) then why not the Shipwright himself? I can't really see Cirdan handing over the job and responsibilities prematurely. My guess, (and personal preference) is that he stayed until all the Eldar had sailed.
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07-31-2011, 03:33 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
And if he was an eminent shipmaker he arguably had had a number of apprentices since... well, arguably thousands of years before Frodo's day, which would make them quite experienced at the trade I would think. We even have text (Unfinished Tales) that refers to some Elves who learned the art of shipbuilding at the Grey Havens then went south to the mouth of the Morthond. I've no problem with your personal preference of course, but need we think Cirdan had taken on the job, or responsibility, in the first place, of making every ship any of the Eldar would ever take West? |
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07-31-2011, 05:37 PM | #15 |
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I think we need to consider the Elven attitude toward works of their hands. They seemed to regard them as a continual process, not to be laid down lightly, especially if mastery had been reached. Consider Feanor and his attitude to the Silmarils. Celebrimbor died in defenseof his Rings, and Galadriel continued to weave the Elven-cloth. I very much doubt Cirdan would lay down his appointed task until it was completed, and I feel that Cirdan would have left on the last ship.
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07-31-2011, 09:50 PM | #16 |
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OK, but is it stated that Cirdan's appointed task was to make ships for any and all Elves (or Eldar) that would ever leave Middle-earth? And if it isn't noted, I think it's a bit of a speculative jump to say that because Cirdan was a master shipmaker, that this somewhat specific duty (remain until an actual 'last' ship was made and ready) was appointed to him.
I might be forgetting something, but as far as I recall Cirdan was noted as being an eminent shipmaker, but again he wasn't the only ship builder in any case -- emphasis here that others were Elvish too. Last edited by Galin : 07-31-2011 at 11:00 PM. |
08-01-2011, 01:02 PM | #17 |
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And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. "Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after." "I obey," Cirdan answered, and then it seemed to him that he saw (in a vision maybe) a shape like a white boat, shining above him, that sailed west through the air, and as it dwindled in the distance it looked like a star of so great a brilliance that it cast a shadow of Cirdan upon the strand where he stood.
The History of Middle-earth, vol. XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth: "Last Writings - Cirdan," p. 386
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08-01-2011, 05:30 PM | #18 | |
Elven Warrior
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The fuller citation reads...
Quote:
This refers to the building of Vingilot, the making of which, of course, was completed well before Frodo's day. And in any case, in this citation I don't see the Valar appointing Cirdan the task of abiding in Middle-earth until the very last Elda or Elf sailed West, in order to construct a 'last' ship. |
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08-04-2011, 01:39 PM | #19 |
Hobbit
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I agree with Galin. Cirdan would stay in ME for ages, if he needed to wait until every Elf had departed. There are always Elves, for example in Mirkwood, that stay in ME. Maybe Cirdan stayed in ME after the departure of Elrond, but I don't think that he waited until all Elves have sailed to Valinor. That sound a bit, uh... Unreasonable to me. ;p
But that's my opinion. |
08-10-2011, 04:54 PM | #20 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I suspect he waited until all the High Elves had left or expressed their refusal to leave.
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