12-19-2003, 05:08 PM | #1 |
Sapling
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Glorfindel back from the dead?
Can anyone tell me why, in The Silmarillion, It clearly says that Glorfindel of Gondolin dies fighting off a Balrog, but in FOTR, Glorfindel is the one who carries Frodo on his horse to Rivendel? Is there more than one Glorfindel?
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12-19-2003, 05:11 PM | #2 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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In an essay from the late 60's (or early 70's) Tolkien explains how Glorfindel died in the battle for Gondolin, was 'reborn' in Valinor (much earlier than many others, afaik, because of his good deeds in his former life), and traveled to Middle Earth to help the free peoples of Middle Earth.
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12-19-2003, 05:12 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Theer's already a thread like tat in Middle Earth, but I think it's pretty old...
Could be Glorfindel returned by Mandos, Mandos can return their souls to bodies, and than came back to Middle Earth. That's what I believe. But, as you said, there's always the possibility that tere are 2 Glorfindels. |
12-19-2003, 05:35 PM | #4 |
Sapling
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Does it say in Unfinished Tales or the History of Middle-Earth anything about this, or is it just in that essay?
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12-19-2003, 05:37 PM | #5 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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The essay can be found in Histories of Middle Earth 12, The peoples of M-E. A really good book, by the way.
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12-19-2003, 05:56 PM | #6 |
Sapling
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Thx for the info, and I do hope to read the history sometime soon. ( I think I might get one of the three book set containing all for christmas)
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12-19-2003, 07:28 PM | #7 |
Elven Warrior
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According to the "Encyclopedia Of Arda"
The Problem of the Two Glorfindels With the possible exception of Tom Bombadil's identity (and - of course - the wingedness or otherwise of Balrogs), there is no more hotly debated topic than the ultimate fate of Glorfindel. Were Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell the same person? The only real resource we have to answer this question is in The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. Christopher Tolkien dates the notes he gives here at 1972, the year before his father's death. These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'. Tolkien was far from happy with this state of affairs, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third). For the full story of his return, refer to The Peoples of Middle-earth. The question of Glorfindel's identity, then, brings us to a much wider, and highly relevant, question. Can we accept a writer's personal notes, whether written in preparation for a published work, or simply for personal satisfaction, as part of that writer's 'canon'? The importance of this question is highlighted by the essay entitled The Problem of Ros in the same volume of The History of Middle-earth. This is an extensive disposition on the origins and meaning of the syllable ros in names such as Elros. The details need not concern us here: what is relevant is the fact that, after its composition, Tolkien noticed a detail in the published Lord of the Rings that essentially negated the discussion. He dismissed the body of The Problem of Ros with four words; 'most of this fails'. But what if he had not noticed this inconvenient fact (that Cair Andros had already been interpreted, and disagreed with his conclusions)? What if he had noticed, but had failed to record the fact? Would The Problem of Ros now be considered part of the 'Tolkienian' canon in the way that many regard the notes on Glorfindel? Questions like this show that we cannot simply take such notes on immediate face value. Despite this, the Glorfindel notes lead many to see his re-embodiment and return to Middle-earth as 'fact' (and not a few have e-mailed us to remind us of this!) The purpose of this rather lengthy aside, though, is to show that we cannot view these 'events' in such concrete terms. This is the reason that the 'two Glorfindels' have separate entries on this site. This is not because we do not believe that Tolkien saw them as different embodiments of the same character (as we have seen, there are strong indications that he did), but simply because there is no definitive, published, proof of this. |
12-20-2003, 12:38 PM | #8 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Moving to the Middle-earth forum.
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12-20-2003, 12:47 PM | #9 | ||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Have read this article some time ago, just want to comment on it:
Quote:
Quote:
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12-21-2003, 01:16 PM | #10 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
And personally I believe that there's only one Glorfindel ( the one and only ). I think he returned to ME in the year of the dread (second age) |
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12-22-2003, 06:00 AM | #11 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Wow. I think the last time that debate surfaced was when I had just joined the Entmoot. Nice to see it again.
Quote:
Still, I can do nothing else than liking how Tolkien 'solved' the Glorfindel-problem. Instead of saying that the case Glorfindel of Rivendell was the only time an elven name was re-used, he made a whole back-up story to make both Glorfindels one. I quite like that.
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12-22-2003, 12:30 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
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i know this is about Glorfindol but if its true that he was given his body back for his good deeds then alot of the elves should have been given their bodies back. Especially Filgolfin, could you imagine how useful Fingolfin would have been if he had come back. Imagine if he had survived all the way into the third age, he would have been able to walk the ring into Mordor alone and throw it into the fires of mount doom.
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12-22-2003, 01:08 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-22-2003, 01:32 PM | #14 | |
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12-22-2003, 01:52 PM | #15 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-22-2003, 02:00 PM | #16 | |
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12-22-2003, 02:08 PM | #17 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-22-2003, 02:32 PM | #18 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Yep, that's it. Thanks for clearing it up for me.
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12-22-2003, 05:05 PM | #19 | |
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Quote:
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12-24-2003, 09:57 PM | #20 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Yes, and in the Letters, JRRT discusses Miriel's choice and what havoc it wrought.
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