11-27-2002, 06:22 AM | #1 |
Hobbit
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Gandalf
I have been reflecting...
What happened to Gandalf when he fell in Moria? He tells Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli: "Long time I fell, and my foe fell with me." The balrog turns into slime, Gandalf holds onto his heel and so manages to find the lost stair, and then ensues the fight on the top of ZirakZigil (whatever it's called). Gandalf then passes out of thought and knowledge. He talks about wandering... He obviously comes back with a modified (?resurrected?) body which is slightly translucent. He also says something about "forgetting much which I knew, and remembering much which I had forgotten". What does he mean by this? Where did he go? Did he return to Aman, to Manwe (Olorin being one of the Maiar of Manwe... Manwe as lord of the air maintained contact with Middle Earth even though the rest of the Valar had forsaken it after Morgoth ruined it, through the services of the great eagles and other birds of the air. This is why Gandalf has such influence with the Eagles...)? Did Manwe send him back? Or did Eru Illuvatar? What was the nature of the choice of those Maiar who elected to go to Middle Earth to aid the free peoples against Sauron? Did they assume mortality/immortality of the kind of the elves? Or were they completely different? Why is it that Gandalf before Moria seems less powerful than the White Rider (Gandalf post Moria)? Where does his power come from? Why the injection power at this point? He says to I forget whom, "Even though the [wars with Sauron/quest of the ring/defence of MIddle Earth by Gondor and its allies etc] should fail, my quest shall not have fully failed." What does he mean by this? On the other hand... Gandalf is of the Maiar, as are all the Istari. Sauron is also of the Maiar of old - originally of the folk of Aule, but then aligning himself with Morgoth. If this is so, why has Gandalf himself not the power to confront Sauron? Is it that evil somehow makes a spirit more evil and more powerful than it was otherwise? Moreover, are not the balrogs also Maiar? When the Trees were murdered, and in their place Varda created the sun and the moon (single fruits of each tree), the sun was given to a "female" Maiar who was a spirit of fire... A good version of the balrogs, a Maiar not tainted or twisted by Morgoth. Why then is the balrog of Moria too much for Gandalf? |
11-27-2002, 06:39 AM | #2 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Woof! Lots of questions. Dunno about most of 'em, but the Istari were limited in what they could do: they weren't allowed to use most of their Maia powers. That's why G was more interested in inspiring others.
There is a passage somewhere which says that only Gandalf would have been able to overthrow Sauron using the Ring. And, I think you'll find, Gandalf stuffs the balrog good and proper, but expires himself with the effort. His spirit is "sent back" for a time until his work is completed. If you want to know the mechanics of all this, you'll have to make it up yourself or read someone else's attempt at the same. JRRT always intended for this kind of stuff to be unexplained and mysterious. cheers d. |
11-27-2002, 06:46 AM | #3 |
Hobbit
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Yes, this makes sense Dunadan.
lol - I guess we as readers get so caught up and carried away with Tolkien's mythology and "Histories" that we forget that he left many lacunae... |
11-27-2002, 12:07 PM | #4 | |
Elf Lord
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Re: Gandalf
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11-27-2002, 12:37 PM | #5 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Quote:
I guess a lot of this comes from mystical things like transubstantiation, which are part and parcel of any religion. Having said that, I came across something the other day, can't remember where, where a person was saying that Middle-Earth is supposed to be our world c. 8.000 BC or something. Anyone care to confirm or deny this? cheers d. |
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11-27-2002, 06:21 PM | #6 |
Hobbit
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I believe Dunadan, that this is the case... Middle Earth is *our* earth; it is a mythology of creation. But you know what? I can't remember where I read it either ...
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11-30-2002, 12:52 AM | #7 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Gandalf did not go to Valinor when he died. He left Time and Space altogether. Tolkien makes it crystal clear in a letter that Gandalf went unto God Himself, and was sent back by Him.
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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11-30-2002, 07:29 AM | #8 |
im quite stupid
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my reading of the situation is as follows. The quest was allways destined to succed. Frodo dream been the best example. The destuction of the ring was really frodo business and if gandalf was fully aware of this is a mystery (probably not) frodo had a bad habbit of not telling all that he knew.
As for when gandalf dies i take it when a maiar dies im not sure what happens. Maiar as all being in tolkiens world have free will so maybethere choices affect where they go. Sauron for example maybe by choice would not be sent back to eru (i find illversters name really had to spell) but gandalf who was his servent probably openly wanted to go back. Eru obvosly saw that gandalf had an important job to do and sent him back very very powerfull. Rember the part about no wepon of yours can hurt me, well aragorn had narsil so he mist of been pretty tough. the way he takes away saurmans powers has allways intrested me because well this never occurs anywhere else in tolkiens work and in theory why can they not do this to sauron? the way i see it is because saurman was a servent of the valar and ultimtally eru he decided that hes no longer deserved the powers which he had and took them off him.
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Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot |
11-30-2002, 08:23 AM | #9 |
Hobbit
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Nolendil, yes I think you are probably right about most of that...
Obviously the Maiar differed in power/knowledge/status/ability just as the Valar did... Do you have any information to back up your understanding? |
11-30-2002, 05:02 PM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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Concerning Maiar inequality (power wise), you can look in many places. Acknowledging Saruman the White as greater than Gandalf the Grey is enough though. (And this is certainly true. Gandalf says "he is the head of my order", "he is the greatest of my order". When Gandalf suggests to Saruman that dealing with himself may not be one of the lighter matters, Saruman laughs in his face, "for my words were empty, and he knew it". There was no battle, unlike the movie, because Gandalf didn't have a chance.)
Concerning what happened to Gandalf the Grey after he died (and he did die), you can read about it in Letter # 156 in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien. Everything I said about Gandalf's death and return comes from my memory of this letter. It is also discussed briefy at the end of Letter # 181.
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12-01-2002, 08:40 AM | #11 |
Hobbit
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Sounds like I need to add these letters to my Middle Earth collection... Are they readily available? Is there a preferred edition? One must be right about all this, of course...
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