05-10-2006, 08:04 AM | #1 |
Lady of Letters
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Calormen on screen
I know it'll probably be a long time before we see either The Horse and His Boy or The Last Battle in cinemas, and anything could happen between now and then. However, do you think there will be any problems with how present the Calormenes in today's political climate? Obviously they aren't actually Muslims, but they do share some characteristics with stereotypical depictions of the Middle East.
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05-10-2006, 03:07 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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I don't recall this being a problem with depictions of white slavers or arab slavers in slave flicks. Why should it be a problem that a fictional narrative bears certain resemblances to real people? Should we rather have bug-eyed monsters so as to attempt to avoid all resemblance to humanity so as not to offend anyone?
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05-10-2006, 10:51 PM | #3 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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Most wholeheartedly, I agree with inked. Being "politically correct" is by no means the proper course of action to take. However, I am afraid that there could be backlash, even so. Hopefully, Walden won't shy away from the truth of Lewis' vision for the sake of the ACLU...
It is interesting though...notice that in LOTR, the Southrons were by no means Arab-looking, although there was good reason to make them so (them being from practically the same culture/climate)
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
05-13-2006, 09:10 AM | #4 | |||
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
And could we please stop with the totally distorted references to the ACLU? If you don't know what they are or what they stand for, find out first, OK? For one thing, they are strongly opposed to 'hate-speech' bans, and strongly support free speech and religious liberty- I mean, these were the guys that defended the neo-Nazis right to march in Skokie- hardly pc. http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/strwhe.html When the Nazis Came to Skokie And ACLU's defense of Christians: Quote:
These, and more http://home.comcast.net/~aasch/ACLUF...Christians.htm Quote:
But, hey, what's a little lying if it will save souls and keep those donations rolling in? |
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05-15-2006, 03:50 PM | #5 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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In my opinion, yes, it will have to be changed/seriously toned down. But notice that Lewis is not bieng "prejudiced" against the Calormene culture, he writes their customs etc...as bieng WRONG because he meant it to be, but they aren't bad people, though their political climate stirs unrest.
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05-15-2006, 03:52 PM | #6 |
Lady of Letters
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I agree, I don't think he's prejudiced against the Calormenes - they just believe in the wrong god
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05-15-2006, 05:55 PM | #7 |
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Nevertheless, they resemble Muslims far too well for the ACLU's taste I'm sure...
Though the fact that their god is nothing like the God of Islam will be overlooked...
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05-15-2006, 08:43 PM | #8 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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Exactly. Although that isn't quite made extremely clear in HaHB-it's in TLB that Tash's true nature really becomes evident.
Although notice, the Calormenes aren't so much Middle-Eastern Muslim (which could cause problems) as they are Turkish Muslim (which isn't really in the news)
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
05-17-2006, 12:39 PM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
The ACLU supports freedom of speech. Two college newspaper's editors from the University of Illinois were fired for printing the Danish Mohammed cartoons- the ACLU has demanded that they be reinstated. There are plenty of Politically-correct groups out there who might end up demanding that the Calormenes in "The Horse and His Boy" be altered because they are too close to Muslims, and if they try to take legal action to enforce this, you can be assured that the ACLU will be out there defending the filmmaker's right to express their own artistic vision- that's what the ACLU is all about. Last edited by GreyMouser : 05-17-2006 at 01:02 PM. |
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05-17-2006, 12:57 PM | #10 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Though willing to give Lewis the benefit of the doubt, I think he comes close enough to the Western Imperialist POV to at least raise eyebrows. He pretty well thoroughly scorns the culture of the East, and his extolling of "accursed but beautiful " i.e. white-skinned, barbarians, at least edges on racism. Do I think Lewis was a racist? No- his treatment of Aravia and Emeth show that (though Arvis somehow naturally has picked up those aspects of Northern culture that leave her alienated from her own background) I do think his love of Northern, Classical and Medieval culture- the elements that forged Christendom- has led him to create a "Southern" Enemy that very strongly mimics Islam. |
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05-17-2006, 01:00 PM | #11 |
Elven Warrior
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Actually I was quite surprised that Aragorn's "Men of the West" speech in the ROTK movie didn't arouse more controversy from the post-colonialist feminists- too busy drooling over Viggo, I expect
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05-17-2006, 10:59 PM | #12 | |
Elf Lord
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can't you? And, under the Mercy, Aslan makes provision for Calormenes - as is cleary shown in TLB.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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05-18-2006, 12:41 PM | #13 | |
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I'll tell you why: I don't know of ONE case, where the ACLU was there for freedom of speech on behalf of some christian, or christian group...at least none that they disagreed with. There's something to that though: the ACLU may look at the christian majority as the ONES who "attack" freedom of speech" or whatever (I know its not true that they concentrate on freedom of speech solely) in the first place. There wasnt TOO much controversy about LWW, but it was out there, esp. at the New York Times columns section...
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05-20-2006, 12:09 AM | #14 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
And since you missed it the first time... Quote:
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05-22-2006, 05:38 PM | #15 |
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Ok...so they have. I'm defeated there...but I'm not completely convinced by them.
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05-22-2006, 06:11 PM | #16 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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All your examples were from the ACLU's official page. Of course they'll tout the times they helped Christians. Just keep in mind that's only a fraction of all the cases that have ever existed. Just as many times, they've fought against freedom to wear religious jewelry, pray in school (private prayer), and read the Bible in school.
www.aclj.org And maybe it's biased, but so is www.aclu.org. But I really don't want to dwell on this much longer.
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
05-25-2006, 07:31 PM | #17 | |
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Yes , absolutely right Curu. After all, it isn't Phantasms showing up whenever there are Creation-Evolution debates in the schools
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05-28-2006, 10:05 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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From the ACLU thread #200 (General Messages, Ya'll)
Now here'e a blast. The ACLU wants to limit the free speech of its Board members: http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/200...m-by-its-board/ the original NYT article is linked in this report. Oh, where's the Kleenex? I'm laughing so hard I'm tearing up!!!!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
05-29-2006, 05:21 PM | #19 | |
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06-19-2006, 01:08 PM | #20 | |
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I think the primary similarities are the dry, desert climate, and some architecture and clothing reminiscent of a 1940s or 1950s Sinbad the Sailor film. I do not think there were any mention of Allah in the books or any direct Islamic references. I am not Muslim, so it may also be that I am not fine tuned to seeing Islamic references and/or symbolism. It has been several months since I have read HaHB or TLB, so if some one would be kind enough to point out some Islamic references that I missed I would appreciate it. (Although I could see how one could try and substitute Allah with Tash if one chose to do so.) An interesting question would be how well did TC of Narnia sold in Muslim countries. Did any one notice how the name Calormen implies "Hot" men in Spanish? Calor = Heat or hot. I think it may have been just by chance, but If CSLewis is well versed in other languages he may have chosen the name as a pun on the climate of Calorman.
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