station to station

coolismo · 02-14-2002, 04:26 PM

Tottering around my church waiting for mass I couldn’t help notice something. Now I ain’t another nutball trying to tell everyone that JRR is really rewriting derholybible but this stood out esp as he was a practicing catholic and maybe derived the structure of the tale of Frodo/Sam from here. I noticed how the stations of the cross reflect the story of S/F. The stations are basically little sculptures around the walls of every catholic church and describe the crucifixion of JC. They always have the same order and names. Well it got me pondering and here’s how I see the stations as stages of Frodo’s journey to Orodruin….Here’s the station name and maybe the corresponding plot point in LOR

1. Christ is condemned to his fate. Frodo accepts the ring .

2. The cross is laid upon him. Frodo bears the ring at the council.

3. His first fall. Morgul blade, the big wound to F.

4. He meets the Blessed Mother. Galadriel

5. Simon of Cyrene bears the cross. Temptation of Galadriel?

6. Christs face wiped by veronica…working on it

7. Second fall. Amon Hen/the whole thing with Boromir

8. He meets the Jerusalem women ..er dunno yet

9. His third fall. Shelob brings F down.

10. He is stripped of his garments. F is stripped and shut in the top floor.

11. His crucifixion. Orodruin, the agony of F as he can’t let go.

12. His death on the cross. the wound of the finger.(I see this as F’s ego sacrificed)

13. His body is taken down from the cross. Gandalf and Gwahir lift em out

14. Laid in the tomb. F suffers until he is taken to the Grey Havens ah the ascension.

Next time your near dercherch pop in and take a look. He must have got the plot structure from somewhere anyway I offer it for your consideration, amazement or ridicule

aldesign · 02-14-2002, 06:41 PM

meh, not really good enough, still think its all just co-incedence

although all story's seem similar

hero
best mate
Leader
comedy aspect
love interest

half baddies

baddies
servants

sub-plot baddies

i think theres a few more but anyway...
lay that over anything uve ever seen, and it should match up.

bropous · 02-15-2002, 04:35 PM

coolismo,I think you just keep reaching for a religious allegory that just ain't there.

Take a look at Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 262, a letter to a Herbert Schiro, 17 November, 1957:

"There is no 'symbolism or conscious allegory in my story. Allegory of the sort 'five wizards=five senses' is wholly foreign to my way of thinking. There were five wizards and that is just a unique part of history. To ask id the Orcs 'are' Communists is to me as sensible as asking if communists are Orcs."

See, I think Tolkien was avoiding any sort of allegorical connection in his epic, and though he was quite a religious man, it is not a book of Christ, it is a book of Hobbits. It does not represent anything else, it is, simply as Tom Bombadil is. I think your relation of the story line to the stations of the cross is rather stretched and forced. I don't mean to ridicule, I really don't, but in trying to force it into the religious mould I think you lose some of the charm of the story.

As for the similarities in structure of plot, that's pretty much a standard pattern in myth and legend and religious tradition, be it Hercules or Mithra or Zoroaster or Odin or Utnapishtim. Considering the development of the story of Jesus, it is not surprising these similarities are there, for al ot of those stories were actually stories of other "saviors" which were adapted by the early christians to bring in additional believers. Sort of corrupting the myth, so to speak. One can find similar actions by Hercules or Mithra or Apollo, stories originally told of those legendary figures then later ascribed to Christ. Hence the similarities between epic tales.

Don't agree with your assessment on this issue, but hey, we all have a right to our opinions.

02-14-2002, 04:26 PM	#1
coolismo Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: south england Posts: 93	station to station Tottering around my church waiting for mass I couldn’t help notice something. Now I ain’t another nutball trying to tell everyone that JRR is really rewriting derholybible but this stood out esp as he was a practicing catholic and maybe derived the structure of the tale of Frodo/Sam from here. I noticed how the stations of the cross reflect the story of S/F. The stations are basically little sculptures around the walls of every catholic church and describe the crucifixion of JC. They always have the same order and names. Well it got me pondering and here’s how I see the stations as stages of Frodo’s journey to Orodruin….Here’s the station name and maybe the corresponding plot point in LOR 1. Christ is condemned to his fate. Frodo accepts the ring . 2. The cross is laid upon him. Frodo bears the ring at the council. 3. His first fall. Morgul blade, the big wound to F. 4. He meets the Blessed Mother. Galadriel 5. Simon of Cyrene bears the cross. Temptation of Galadriel? 6. Christs face wiped by veronica…working on it 7. Second fall. Amon Hen/the whole thing with Boromir 8. He meets the Jerusalem women ..er dunno yet 9. His third fall. Shelob brings F down. 10. He is stripped of his garments. F is stripped and shut in the top floor. 11. His crucifixion. Orodruin, the agony of F as he can’t let go. 12. His death on the cross. the wound of the finger.(I see this as F’s ego sacrificed) 13. His body is taken down from the cross. Gandalf and Gwahir lift em out 14. Laid in the tomb. F suffers until he is taken to the Grey Havens ah the ascension. Next time your near dercherch pop in and take a look. He must have got the plot structure from somewhere anyway I offer it for your consideration, amazement or ridicule

02-14-2002, 06:41 PM	#2
aldesign Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Uk Posts: 447	meh, not really good enough, still think its all just co-incedence although all story's seem similar hero best mate Leader comedy aspect love interest half baddies baddies servants sub-plot baddies i think theres a few more but anyway... lay that over anything uve ever seen, and it should match up. __________________ The funniest story on the net, made by entmoot fanatics, visit it @ FOTMB.com FRODO LIVES!! GET FREE AVATARS HERE!

02-15-2002, 04:35 PM	#3
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	coolismo,I think you just keep reaching for a religious allegory that just ain't there. Take a look at Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 262, a letter to a Herbert Schiro, 17 November, 1957: "There is no 'symbolism or conscious allegory in my story. Allegory of the sort 'five wizards=five senses' is wholly foreign to my way of thinking. There were five wizards and that is just a unique part of history. To ask id the Orcs 'are' Communists is to me as sensible as asking if communists are Orcs." See, I think Tolkien was avoiding any sort of allegorical connection in his epic, and though he was quite a religious man, it is not a book of Christ, it is a book of Hobbits. It does not represent anything else, it is, simply as Tom Bombadil is. I think your relation of the story line to the stations of the cross is rather stretched and forced. I don't mean to ridicule, I really don't, but in trying to force it into the religious mould I think you lose some of the charm of the story. As for the similarities in structure of plot, that's pretty much a standard pattern in myth and legend and religious tradition, be it Hercules or Mithra or Zoroaster or Odin or Utnapishtim. Considering the development of the story of Jesus, it is not surprising these similarities are there, for al ot of those stories were actually stories of other "saviors" which were adapted by the early christians to bring in additional believers. Sort of corrupting the myth, so to speak. One can find similar actions by Hercules or Mithra or Apollo, stories originally told of those legendary figures then later ascribed to Christ. Hence the similarities between epic tales. Don't agree with your assessment on this issue, but hey, we all have a right to our opinions. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.