is Galadriel the architect of the rings demise

coolismo · 02-06-2002, 03:03 PM

Re-reading Towers yet again one thought struck me. Is Galadriel the architect of the demise of the ring?
At the end of the Passage of the Marshes Frodo awakes from a deep sleep.
'Strangely enough, Frodo felt refreshed. He had been dreaming. The dark shadow had passed, and a fair vision had visited him in this land of disease. Nothing remained of it in his memory, yet because of it he felt glad and lighter of heart.'

Could this have been a visitation by the fair lady of the wood? One of the effects of receiving the lady was that she lightened your burden after all, Aragorn especially benefited this way.

The effect of this vision is profound. A few pages later Frodo is much changed. Frodo is now fully the master of Gollum and reminding him of his 'promise' he says:

'If I wearing (the ring) were to command you you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command.'

Surely these words are both specific and prophetic. Does Frodo now know the outcome of the quest and is this because of the vision. Was the vision a replay of theat in the mirror?

Is Galadriel therefore the power behind the quest? Is she the light that Sam sees and loves so much? Could it be a kind of inner phial such as the physical gift?

Rereading again these little inklings come up, does anyone else see any of this or nay?

If so I wants me some of that grace of the lady boy o boy.

Pailan · 02-06-2002, 03:30 PM

If I think I understand what you are saying is that Galadriel who had seen the Light of the Two Trees, was operating in the "spiritual realm" to forward the quest. There is something going on beyond mere forshadowing.

Quote:

Surely these words are both specific and prophetic. Does Frodo now know the outcome of the quest and is this because of the vision. Was the vision a replay of theat in the mirror?

Galadriel's kingdom is a powerful vortex in the midst of mortal lands. Somewhat similar to Doraith from the Sil.

Quote:

Is Galadriel therefore the power behind the quest? Is she the light that Sam sees and loves so much? Could it be a kind of inner phial such as the physical gift?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that she is the brains behind the quest. That would go to Elrond, who was there the first time the ring should've been destroyed. Galadriel was very tempted to take the Ring when Frodo offered it to her. So on the "spirtual" side of things I would see her more as a benefactor to the Fellowship, enabling them to see the big picture, which she understood better than almost anyone else then living in Middle Earth. In that way she resisted the lure of the Ring and furthered it's destruction and her eventual departure from ME.

Good points, coolisimo. I'm gonna stew on this some more.

coolismo · 02-06-2002, 04:02 PM

stew as well as a coney Pailan....

Stewing again myself I see that in Farewell to Lothlorien G gives F the phial and says....
'
It will shine still brighter when night is about you. May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out

Remember Galadriel and her mirror.'

Then we get the passage in the marshes where Frodo has a memorial dream/vision in just about the darkest corner of ME.

This is a point of dramatic change in the story and in F. It comes after the dream and the dream seems to refer to the gifts of G.

I like your points about the spiritual vortex of Lothlorien in ME, maybe the gifts have a spiritual corollary.

Hmmmm, hoooooooooom, not too hasty.

allsirgarnet · 02-06-2002, 04:48 PM

Could it be that the "Spiritual Vortex of Lothlorien" in ME is not due so much to Galadriel herself,but rather to the Elven Ring she possesses herself.

Each of the three seems to have had a specific role to play in the tale.

As i see it,

Elronds promoted strength and wisdom,

Galadriels Ring was more of a spiritual fortifier,renewing those who opposed Sauron spiritually and bodily,

Gandalfs seems to be one of inspiration,of being able to fire "mens" hearts.

If this is roughly correct,them your premise seems ok too.By giving Frodo his ''Glass" she was probably able to extend her "'ringpower" to him remotely,as opposed to normal when a visit to Lothlorien would be needed.

As to the One Ring itself,remember it carried withit somewhat of Saurons will,and the nearer to Mordor it went ,the stronger this malice probably became.Even though he wasnt wearing it ,the "Burden"' of the ring grew on him daily ,so who knows what mental effects that would have?

Imagine having the will and malice of Sauron seeping gradually into your mind day after day.I'm sure a little would rub off gradually bit by bit ,and maybe this caused some of the changes we see in Frodo.

If anything i would have thought the Lady's influence to be one of purifying,whereas your quote seems much more like something Sauron might say.

Still,excellent theme for discussion.

sun-star · 02-06-2002, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle Earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action.

(That's from Unfinished Tales, I don't know if you treat that as canon!)
This would seem to me to prove that she could have been some kind of spiritual guide or inspiration for the Fellowship, but not the "architect" of the quest. With the power of the Elves fading, Men have to do it for themselves. She can advise and comfort them, but not physically help.
So is sending dreams physical or spiritual help?

Legolas_BowKing · 02-08-2002, 10:12 AM

I think that Sam is the brains behind the whole operation

KGamgee · 02-08-2002, 04:22 PM

I TOTALLY agree with Legolas_Bowking
Sam is a genious. If you think I'm wrong you better check out the "Is Sam kinda dim?" thread.
Sam is AWESOME!

Curufinwe · 02-08-2002, 06:04 PM

Why in Middle-Earth would the dream have come from Galadriel? Was Frodo's dream in the House of Bombadil from her as well, did this funky elf queen have the final say so on inspirational dreams? Why couldn't it have come from Gandalf, as a Maia more powerful than any elf. Or Manwe, or even Eru, do you think they didnt have any stake it this?

Renille · 02-08-2002, 10:39 PM

I agree with the "spiritual vortex" theory. Part of that has to be Lothlorien itself, though...just remembering such a beautiful, powerful place, would serve to refresh Frodo and Sam.
As for Galadriel sending dreams, I believe it is possible, as she is one of the most powerful being in Middle Earth during the third age.
Maybe Eru and Manwe "inspired" Galadriel's actions...to see if she was loyal to them or not.

CardenIAntauraNauco · 02-10-2002, 12:53 AM

Galadriel is just an Elf. A very ancient elf from valinor. The power and the comfort he recieves is from Varda also known as Elbereth. Hence, A Elbereth Githoniel, or O Elbereth Star-Weaver. He seems to say this whenever he is in extreme situations. (Flight to the ford , Shelob's Lair....). In the silmarillion it says that Elbereth sits on Talequentil and hears the people of middle-earth.

Evenstar · 02-10-2002, 01:22 AM

Wow...I never even thought of that!!! Nice to know I pay attention..

02-06-2002, 03:03 PM	#1
coolismo Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: south england Posts: 93	is Galadriel the architect of the rings demise Re-reading Towers yet again one thought struck me. Is Galadriel the architect of the demise of the ring? At the end of the Passage of the Marshes Frodo awakes from a deep sleep. 'Strangely enough, Frodo felt refreshed. He had been dreaming. The dark shadow had passed, and a fair vision had visited him in this land of disease. Nothing remained of it in his memory, yet because of it he felt glad and lighter of heart.' Could this have been a visitation by the fair lady of the wood? One of the effects of receiving the lady was that she lightened your burden after all, Aragorn especially benefited this way. The effect of this vision is profound. A few pages later Frodo is much changed. Frodo is now fully the master of Gollum and reminding him of his 'promise' he says: 'If I wearing (the ring) were to command you you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command.' Surely these words are both specific and prophetic. Does Frodo now know the outcome of the quest and is this because of the vision. Was the vision a replay of theat in the mirror? Is Galadriel therefore the power behind the quest? Is she the light that Sam sees and loves so much? Could it be a kind of inner phial such as the physical gift? Rereading again these little inklings come up, does anyone else see any of this or nay? If so I wants me some of that grace of the lady boy o boy.

02-08-2002, 10:39 PM	#9
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	I agree with the "spiritual vortex" theory. Part of that has to be Lothlorien itself, though...just remembering such a beautiful, powerful place, would serve to refresh Frodo and Sam. As for Galadriel sending dreams, I believe it is possible, as she is one of the most powerful being in Middle Earth during the third age. Maybe Eru and Manwe "inspired" Galadriel's actions...to see if she was loyal to them or not. __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

02-10-2002, 12:53 AM	#10
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	Galadriel is just an Elf. A very ancient elf from valinor. The power and the comfort he recieves is from Varda also known as Elbereth. Hence, A Elbereth Githoniel, or O Elbereth Star-Weaver. He seems to say this whenever he is in extreme situations. (Flight to the ford , Shelob's Lair....). In the silmarillion it says that Elbereth sits on Talequentil and hears the people of middle-earth. __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

02-10-2002, 01:22 AM	#11
Evenstar Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Neverneverland Posts: 215	Wow...I never even thought of that!!! Nice to know I pay attention.. __________________ "Frodo, Mr Frodo," he called. "Don't leave me here alone. It's your Sam calling. Don't you go where I can't follow." FRODO LIVES !!!!

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02-06-2002, 04:02 PM	#3
coolismo Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: south england Posts: 93	stew as well as a coney Pailan.... Stewing again myself I see that in Farewell to Lothlorien G gives F the phial and says.... ' It will shine still brighter when night is about you. May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out Remember Galadriel and her mirror.' Then we get the passage in the marshes where Frodo has a memorial dream/vision in just about the darkest corner of ME. This is a point of dramatic change in the story and in F. It comes after the dream and the dream seems to refer to the gifts of G. I like your points about the spiritual vortex of Lothlorien in ME, maybe the gifts have a spiritual corollary. Hmmmm, hoooooooooom, not too hasty.

02-06-2002, 04:48 PM	#4
allsirgarnet Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 25	Could it be that the "Spiritual Vortex of Lothlorien" in ME is not due so much to Galadriel herself,but rather to the Elven Ring she possesses herself. Each of the three seems to have had a specific role to play in the tale. As i see it, Elronds promoted strength and wisdom, Galadriels Ring was more of a spiritual fortifier,renewing those who opposed Sauron spiritually and bodily, Gandalfs seems to be one of inspiration,of being able to fire "mens" hearts. If this is roughly correct,them your premise seems ok too.By giving Frodo his ''Glass" she was probably able to extend her "'ringpower" to him remotely,as opposed to normal when a visit to Lothlorien would be needed. As to the One Ring itself,remember it carried withit somewhat of Saurons will,and the nearer to Mordor it went ,the stronger this malice probably became.Even though he wasnt wearing it ,the "Burden"' of the ring grew on him daily ,so who knows what mental effects that would have? Imagine having the will and malice of Sauron seeping gradually into your mind day after day.I'm sure a little would rub off gradually bit by bit ,and maybe this caused some of the changes we see in Frodo. If anything i would have thought the Lady's influence to be one of purifying,whereas your quote seems much more like something Sauron might say. Still,excellent theme for discussion.

02-08-2002, 10:12 AM	#6
Legolas_BowKing Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 115	I think that Sam is the brains behind the whole operation

02-08-2002, 04:22 PM	#7
KGamgee Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 103	I TOTALLY agree with Legolas_Bowking Sam is a genious. If you think I'm wrong you better check out the "Is Sam kinda dim?" thread. Sam is AWESOME!

02-08-2002, 06:04 PM	#8
Curufinwe Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New England Posts: 59	Why in Middle-Earth would the dream have come from Galadriel? Was Frodo's dream in the House of Bombadil from her as well, did this funky elf queen have the final say so on inspirational dreams? Why couldn't it have come from Gandalf, as a Maia more powerful than any elf. Or Manwe, or even Eru, do you think they didnt have any stake it this?