did some elves....

[ArwenEvenstar]

stay after the 1 ring was distroyed!?

[Ñólendil]

Yes, many did. In fact, some Ñoldor remained as well.

[Sakata]

I'd stay

[galadriel]

A bunch stayed. Some of the more famous include Elrond's sons Elladan and Elrohir, and Celeborn. I thought Thranduil stayed too. Legolas stayed for a while, although he eventually took ship. Cirdan and many of the Elves at the Gray Havens stayed for a very long time; it seems to me that Cirdan himself was the last to leave.

We can assume that the majority of the elves who stayed after LOTR eventually left. There simply wasn't anything left for them in M-e; the age of Men had arrived. Elrond's sons seemed to be more human-like than elf-like, maybe they chose mortality. Perhaps a few stayed indefinitely: a great idea for a fanfic! But all of this is speculation, we just don't know.

[Galadriel2002]

im sooooooo stupid. i knew that.

[galadriel]

not stupid. just a little forgetful. it happens to the best of us.

ok, i'm confused. Galadriel2002 and ArwenEvenstar have the same cute little icon, and similar quotes for signatures. are you the same person, or is there some conspiracy here that i'm not aware of?

[Ñólendil]

There were some Elves that did indeed 'stay indeffinitely', but they faded in time. Other Elvish spirits who had 'died' refused the summons of Mandos and remained in Middle-earth, and will, until it's destruction.

[galadriel]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but does "fading" really mean that the Elves lose their ability to interact with the physical world, as I've heard it said? Or does it simply mean that they dwindle as a people, no longer great? Is there a difference between fading, and dying of grief and becoming a wraith?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by galadriel
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but does "fading" really mean that the Elves lose their ability to interact with the physical world, as I've heard it said? Or does it simply mean that they dwindle as a people, no longer great? Is there a difference between fading, and dying of grief and becoming a wraith?

I think in Tolkien the word fading means just that. It would be along the lines of becoming a ghost. The spirit of the Elves consumed their bodies from within which happened more frequently in the First Age, because they had not been inhabited so long by their spirits. After the rings of power were made, I am not sure, but this slowed down that effect.

[galadriel]

that makes sense. thanks.

[Ñólendil]

That's correct, save that it was less frequent in the First Age, not more so. Death, the severance of hröa (body) and fëa (spirit), was more frequent in the First Age, but not fading.

Intriguing related passages can be found in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, which was published in Vol. X of the History of Middle-earth (Morgoth's Ring), The History of the Silmarillion Part 1. From the fictional perspective, it is certain the text was supposed to have been written by a Man, and I personally believe it to come from the early Fourth Age. I type a couple pages worth here:

223

... The fëa is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned, and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among those who refused the summons (or rather invitation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fëa unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge -- unless it were already commite to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth.

But it would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of the Eldalië in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world,* unwilling to leave it and unable to inhabit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that once they knew. Not all of these are kindly or

*For only those who willingly go to Mandos may be re-born. Re-birth is a grace, and comes of the power that Eru committed to the Valar for the ruling of Arda and the redress of its marring. It does not lie in the power of any fëa in itself. Only those return whom, after Mandos has spoken the doom of release, Manwë and Varda bless.

224

unstained by the Shadow. Indeed the refusal of the summons is i itself a sign of taint.

It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with the is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.

[Thus it may be seen that those who in latter days hold that the Elves are dangerous to Men and that it is folly or wickedness to seek converse with them do not speak without reason. For how, it may be asked, shall a mortal distinguish between the kinds? On teh one hand, the Houseless, rebels at least against the Rulers, and maybe even deeper under the Shadow; on the other, the Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by its mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully. Yet the answer is not in truth difficult. Evil is not one thing among Elves and another among Men. Those who give evil counsel, or speak against the Rulers (or if they dare, against the One), are evil, and should be shunned whether bodied or unbodied. Moreover, the Lingerers

225

are not houseless though they may seem to be. They do not desire bodies, neither do they seek shelter, nor strive for mastery over body or mind. Indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. Then they may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty. Of such he may have no fear, though he may feel awe of them. For the Houseless have no forms to reveal, and even if it were within their power (as some Men say) to counterfeit elvish forms, deluding the minds of Men with fantasies, such visions would be marred by the evil of their intent. For the hearts of true Men uprise in joy to behold the true likenesses of the First-born, their elder kindred; and this joy nothing evil can counterfeit. So spoke Ælfwine.] ...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by galadriel
that makes sense. thanks.

Inoldonil is correct about the Elves of the First Age. Here is what the Silmarillion says: " Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirits, which consumes them from within in the courses of time." But that is how they fade. They are consumed from within by their spirits.

[fatclown]

Yes. But basically the silvian. The passing of the elves was the great races of Eldar and Sindar. The last of the great kings went to the undying lands. But they were very scarce compared to man at taht time.