Philosophy

[Noble Elf Lord]

Don´t know if this is a good idea, but let´s try... So in here we would discuss matters such as good and evil, God´s morale, knowledge... And I thought we´d start with good and evil. The purpose, as often in philosophy, is not to solve these things, but to discuss and debate just to stay in shape and get new views. So. Good and evil - why do they exist - or do they? As far as I´m concerned, I´ve began to doubt whether there actually are any opposite things - are they not just ideas of the ever - ordering human mind? For example, hot and cold. Cold doesn´t physically exist, it´s just lower warmth. So if something changes, is it a contrast to it´s former appearance? And surely there are things which don´t have an opposite thing - they have too many properties for that. How can you find something completely opposite to a brown branch, for instance? I believe this will be interesting. Post!
And feel free to make up debates, though it will be easier to do with one at a time. Thank you.

[inked]

Noble Elf Lord,
This type of discussion has been on-going on the 'MOOT for years before my advent and since. Try the search feature on good, evil, philosophy, etc. You shall find much to contemplate.

However, I will say that there is absolute good and He is knowable! Human reason is not so flawed as to not be able to participate in that knowledge though in will human nature has been so bent as not to be able to accomplish consistently the good or even to desire it.

[brownjenkins]

Just read all my posts!

There are absolutely no absolutes!!

Every observation of what we call reality is relative to the individual's point of view. Thankfully, for many, since humans are the only "intelligent" beings we know of, our relative perceptions are fairly close, which leads us towards the illusion of absolutes.

But don't let that fool you. All that exists is purely what we define it to be, good and evil being an excellent example of that.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Just read all my posts!

There are absolutely no absolutes!!

Every observation of what we call reality is relative to the individual's point of view. Thankfully, for many, since humans are the only "intelligent" beings we know of, our relative perceptions are fairly close, which leads us towards the illusion of absolutes.

But don't let that fool you. All that exists is purely what we define it to be, good and evil being an excellent example of that.

Naw. Platonic forms, all the way. There is an absolute reality, even if we don't perceive it correctly.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

There is an absolute reality, even if we don't perceive it correctly.

Doubtful, though, even if there is, if we can't perceive it correctly, then we have no business claiming that we can define what it is.

Better to stick with what we can define, our perception-biased reality.

For example, good and evil are always fun concepts to look at in an absolute way, but it's much more interesting to look at reality, where just about everything is only good or evil according to ones point of view.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Doubtful, though, even if there is, if we can't perceive it correctly, then we have no business claiming that we can define what it is.

I didn't say I could define it. I can't explain how the TV works but I can look at the pictures. Why should reality itself be any simpler?

Better to stick with what we can define, our perception-biased reality.

Why? Dickens dealt with your "perception based reality."
"You don't believe in me," observed the Ghost.

"I don't." said Scrooge.

"What evidence would you have of my reality, beyond that of your senses?"

"I don't know," said Scrooge.

"Why do you doubt your senses?"

"Because," said Scrooge, "a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!"

If, as we agree, perception is imperfect, why would I limit myself to it?

For example, good and evil are always fun concepts to look at in an absolute way, but it's much more interesting to look at reality, where just about everything is only good or evil according to ones point of view.

You have standards that you apply to good and evil, and you choose their basis. For me, being solely responsible for that makes no sense. If I didn't believe that there was an ultimate morality, of which human morality is a pale and imperfect shadow, I wouldn't bother at all. I'd be completely amoral, why not? All id, all the time.

Since I do believe that "good" and "evil" are not merely human constructs, but part of an ultimate reality that I may never understand, I know that other humans may err in defining them, as I do. But the fact that people try, even doomed to failure, is a point in our favor, and even a point in support of my theory.

Believing in nothing but perception, you still try to be good. That's because reality is stronger than your errors. Like gravity.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Naw. Platonic forms, all the way. There is an absolute reality, even if we don't perceive it correctly.

I absolutely agree with you, Sis!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Naw. Platonic forms, all the way. There is an absolute reality, even if we don't perceive it correctly.

Are you serious? I don't think I've met anyone before who actually believed in Platonic forms! Care to offer a wee meditatio on them?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Are you serious? I don't think I've met anyone before who actually believed in Platonic forms!

Really? What do people believe in?

Care to offer a wee meditatio on them?

Don't know what to say. Not meaning (for once) to be difficult or abstruse.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Noble Elf Lord,
This type of discussion has been on-going on the 'MOOT for years before my advent and since. Try the search feature on good, evil, philosophy, etc. You shall find much to contemplate.

And...? Just thought dedicating a thread for it.

[katya]

I'm officially following this thread now. There's a few things I wanted to comment on a couple pages back, but I'll resist for now. About those absolutes though...

I'm starting to become a bit of a pantheist. I wrote a term paper on pantheism and won myself over with it. If I was more sure of myself, my opinion might go like this: "I believe that the only absolute is God, who is everything." Replace God with Brahman, Tao, non-divine "everything", whatever your preference. "everything" is a little bit more than just the totality of everything in the universe but... I'm not sure how to describe it. I think it's beyond description or knowledge. 'Course I agree with BJ about not knowing anything for sure. Including whether I know or not or anything. But I gotta have some sorta guess.

My other favorite absolute is absolute zero but I can't remember why. But I had this preoccupation with giving temperature in Kelvins for a while.

Half of me believes in love as the most important and beautiful thing ever but the other half of me believes that pure love or compassion is impossible and it's just very very well disguised ego/selfishness/fear/etc. It depends on my mood. My beliefs and my personality are hardly absolute either.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by katya

Half of me believes in love as the most important and beautiful thing ever but the other half of me believes that pure love or compassion is impossible and it's just very very well disguised ego/selfishness/fear/etc. It depends on my mood. My beliefs and my personality are hardly absolute either.

I've come to believe that the most important human emotion is not love, but empathy, as in understanding and entering into another person's feelings.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by katya

My other favorite absolute is absolute zero but I can't remember why. But I had this preoccupation with giving temperature in Kelvins for a while.

I don't believe in absolute zero.

[brownjenkins]

Everyone is ultimately selfish, with everything they do. But, there is a difference between being selfish in an intelligent and empathic way, thinking longterm and big picture, and being selfish in a more instant-gratification kind of way.

If you truely understand the society you live in, you realize that what is best for yourself coincides with what is best for society.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Everyone is ultimately selfish, with everything they do. But, there is a difference between being selfish in an intelligent and empathic way, thinking longterm and big picture, and being selfish in a more instant-gratification kind of way.

If you truely understand the society you live in, you realize that what is best for yourself coincides with what is best for society.

Oh, PLEEESE! Why ever would that be?

Best for me, for example, would be tree-ripe fruit delivered daily. I can assure you, that would be awesome for me. Awesome for you, too, I'd bet. Unfortunately, it requires an awful lot of petroleum to get it to me.

So. Shall I support Chilean fruit farmers, or not? Shall I buy organic, or local? Should I insist on union produce? Should I freeze fruit in season, or buy frozen fruit? Even applying "long term thinking" and "empathy" to the issue of what I have for dinner doesn't give me ONE answer, it gives me a cascading series of trade-offs.

And I have a set of standards that overlaps with yours pretty well. What if I had a different set?

Won't work. It's too vague.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Even applying "long term thinking" and "empathy" to the issue of what I have for dinner doesn't give me ONE answer, it gives me a cascading series of trade-offs.

I didn't say that there was one answer. It's an individual thing. But, the fact that you can even ponder the longterm trade-offs and try to make a decision with them in mind says a lot.

Many intelligent people can not even do that.

[katya]

Yes, i equate that with love. That and really truly wishing people happiness without selfish motives. Something like that.

[Mari]

I believe everyone is ultimately selfish, but I don't see that as bad.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Mari

I believe everyone is ultimately selfish, but I don't see that as bad.

What about people who give up their lives for other people? That's the ultimate act of love, and most people don't do it with the purpose of gaining goods for themselves.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

What about people who give up their lives for other people? That's the ultimate act of love, and most people don't do it with the purpose of gaining goods for themselves.

That word is your insertion. "Selfish" would still apply to the garnering of good will, or forgiveness, if motivated by self, as well as the advancement of a cherished end. "Goods" aren't the only selfish motivators.