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03-03-2006, 05:29 PM | #1 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Book V, ch. 7 & 8: The Pyre of Denethor and The Houses of Healing
The 7th chapter begins after a quite dramatic moment: the chief nazgul, confronted by Gandalf at the city gates, departs at the moment of the attack of the Rohirrim. Just when Gandalf is about to pursue the witch-king, he is stopped by Pippin, in order to save Faramir.
On the way to the house of the dead, Gandalf appoints Imrahil as leader of the city and arrives barely in time to prevent more blood-shedding: Denethor, driven by madness and despair, is about to cast himself and his son into fire. Gandalf makes a most poignant remark: Quote:
At that moment, Faramir speaks for the first time, and calls his father - an event which almost wakes up Denethor from his madness. Once again, Gandalf challenges his authority, claiming that he cannot keep his son, nor take away his life, in the manner of heathen kings of old. The gondorian ruler reveals his hidden artefact, the palantir; unfortunately, he resorted to using it. Although strong enough to resist corruption, he was driven to despair by the things he saw, unknowing that the palantir only showed the things Sauron allowed. Thus, he sees the fleet of Umbar about to enter the battle of the Pellenor fields, but he doesn't know that Aragorn is leading it. What Denethor chooses is death when confronted with utter despair. With the help of two of his guards, the steward sets himself alight, holding the palantir in his hand. Gandalf hears the deathcry of the nazgul king. There are some rather poetic moments that are worth noting: the fall of the dome of the house of the dead, underlining Gandalf's words that an age has ended; the grey rain at the end of the chapter, which quenches the fires, almost cleansing the hurts of the day. The thing I have most trouble with is Gandalf turning back from the battlefield; considering just the losses: Quote:
1) Do you agree with Gandalf's choice to turn back, to save Faramir, even though he acknowledges himself that many will die? What do you think motivated his choice? 2) Does Gandalf have the right to appoint Imrahil as ruler of the city? Would Imrahil had taken this decision himself, if he knew what happened to Denethor? 3)Does the divided loyalty of the guards remind you of the curse of the noldor? Is it a valid comparison? 4)Denethor has a rather pure numenorean blood; doesn't he still have the right to end his life when he so wishes, even if he can't do it through willpower alone? 5)The steward knows of Aragorn and of Gandalf's plan concerning him - most likely through the use of his palantir. Did he found out about this sooner or later than Sauron did? 6)Denethor is unwilling to relinquish his rule of the city to an heir of Isildur and wishes that the stewardship continues; doesn't this contradict his statement, quoted by Boromir in The window of the west, TTT, that "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" for a steward to become king? 7)Why is Gandalf forced to stay? 8)What greater sorrow may yet come to pass? 9)If Denethor knew of the incoming Umbar fleet, it is most likely that Sauron did too, and in more exact/realistic terms; why wasn't the host of Mordor more prepared to meet Aragorns' attack, seeing that Sauron and the nazgul can communicate rather instantly? Last edited by Landroval : 03-05-2006 at 10:52 AM. |
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03-03-2006, 06:13 PM | #2 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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Houses of Healing
In a rather stark contrast to the previous chapter, concerned with the house of the dead, this chapter deals with the events surrounding the houses of healing. The body of king Theoden is brought in great honor, covered with golden cloth, and later put in the Hall of the Tower, surrounded by twelve torches and twelve knights, of both Gondor and Rohan; as Aragorn notes, "he rose out of the shadows to a last fair morning".
Together with the fallen king is brought the body of Eowyn, still alive, and of Merry, who starts to feel the effects of his attack on the witch-king; he loses his way, and is found by Pippin, and later Gandalf, and brought to the houses of healing. As the wizard rightfully notes, his trust in the hobbit was repaid and he should have been brought in honor into the city, for his deeds. A rather interesting character enters stage: Ioreth, eldest of the healing women; quite amusingly, she reffers to a past time, when "no king could ask for [a] better" lass than her . She is instrumental in revealing Aragorn's healing power and the use of the kingsfoil (athelas), a powerful healing plant; I must say I rather enjoyed these rhymes: Quote:
As he uses the athelas, a rather strange wind is felt: Quote:
Also, rather amusing is the the herbmaster incident; a man of shallow knowledge and of too much pride: Quote:
10) Did the Gondorians atempt to cure age? If so, did this accelerate the dimminishing of their lives (the clinging to life also dimminished the lifelenght of the numenoreans, albeit in a different context)? 11)How come Aragorn calls Elrond "the eldest of our race"? 12)Did it puzzle you the way Faramir recognized Aragorn as his king? 13)How much do you think Aragorn's kiss mattered in waking Eowyn up? 14)Do Gandalf's words: Quote:
15)Do you think Aragorn's words are an exageration: Quote:
16)Dark voices speak to Eowyn in her black dreams; is she coming under Sauron's power, the way a power-ring bearer would? 17)Considering Aragorn's words about Merry, do you think that the (chief) meaning of grief into this world is to bring about wisdom? |
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03-03-2006, 11:20 PM | #3 |
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Wow - great start Landroval! And thanks again for covering this for us.
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03-04-2006, 02:35 AM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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Thanks Valandil - the pleasure was mine .
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03-04-2006, 06:22 AM | #5 | ||||
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Val is right... excellent summary, and on such short notice, too. I'll try some of those questions, now:
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And, he left, just when the Rohirrim came, so that he was not needed in the battle immediately. A battle will always yield casualties, and it is debatable, just how many of those deaths can be imputed to Gandalf's decision to go back. The most direct result of Gandalf not fighting the Morgul Lord was IMO Theoden's death at the hands of the Witch-King, but then, the destruction of the ML at Eowyn's hands can also be imputed, however indirectly, to Gandalf turning back. For Eowyn, his action has a more ironic effect... it deprives her of a father, but supplies her with a husband! Quote:
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As long as there was no ACTUAL threat of a king popping up, he was content to be steward, and careful to check his sons' ambition, but with Aragorn on the scene, his feelings changed. Also, when he told Boromir "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" for a steward to become king"... that may have been before he had used the palantir. Sauron's effect for evil on those near him, may account for this change in Denethor's ambitions.
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03-04-2006, 12:45 PM | #6 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Very good work, Landroval. My compliments!
Before i start answering your questions I have one myself: Quote:
1) Do you agree with Gandalf's choice to turn back, to save Faramir, even though he acknowledges himself that many will die? What do you think motivated his choice? I agree with Serenoli. Not all deaths can be blamed on Gandalf's absence. Even Theoden's. If the Witch-King left his horse and summoned his Fell Beast almost immediately after leaving the Gate, Gandalf wouldn't have been able to catch him anyway. As for Gandalf's motivation, he said himself "Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him." 2) Does Gandalf have the right to appoint Imrahil as ruler of the city? Would Imrahil had taken this decision himself, if he knew what happened to Denethor? I believe so. I think Imrahil was next in command after Denethor and his sons. In any army it is generally very well known who takes precedence in the line of command. Gondoreans were a war-like people. 3)Does the divided loyalty of the guards remind you of the curse of the noldor? Is it a valid comparison? I think not...Hmm... Or you mean the kin-strife in Alqualonde? Anyway, I never thought of it. 4)Denethor has a rather pure numenorean blood; doesn't he still have the right to end his life when he so wishes, even if he can't do it through willpower alone? Again I agree with Serenoli. Gandalf didn't question Denethor's right to die. Moreover, it suited his own plans perfectly. Also only the manner of death (by fire) that Denethor had chosen was "heathen", not the suicide itself. Quote:
IMHO, much sooner, at the time when Aragorn was in Gondor as Thorongil. And he became quite sure after he questioned Pippin. Also if he watched the Fellowship through the Palantir, he might have recognised the leader - as Thorongil he knew and suspected. But here there is a problem. If he followed the progress of the Fellowship, how come Sauron was not aware of it as well, it seems he knew what Denethor was looking at, if he could even select the images for him? How could he miss Frodo? 6)Denethor is unwilling to relinquish his rule of the city to an heir of Isildur and wishes that the stewardship continues; doesn't this contradict his statement, quoted by Boromir in The window of the west, TTT, that "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" for a steward to become king? He also says Quote:
Remaining Stewards to an absent King, they kept their authority unchallenged for a thousand years. Had they choosen to claim the crown, then there would be strife in Gondor, as not only the Stewards, but others in Gondor had Anarion's blood in their veins, though they were not his father-to son descendants. I think Mardil the Good Steward was not too eager to stop the King Earnur from going to the Morgul Vale, neither did he try to learn of his fate afterwards. He could have offered ransom, or sent the army to rescue the King. Just think on it: If nowadays a king, or a president, gets kidnapped in this way, wouldn't there be a general outcry and a war with the offenders? But nothing like that happened, instead there was the Watchful PEACE with Minas Morgul. No, the absence of the King suited Mardil and all the Stewards after him perfectly. 7)Why is Gandalf forced to stay? 8)What greater sorrow may yet come to pass? It is a bit unclear, but I think you refer to this quote: Quote:
(And those who have read my thread : Tolkien's changing conceptions of the Nazgul and the Istari, might see here not only Gandalf's grief for Eowyn and Theoden, but also for the Wizard (Witch) King, who at this point in the writing of the story had been depicted as Gandalf's former companion and the head of his order, taken by evil). 9)If Denethor knew of the incoming Umbar fleet, it is most likely that Sauron did too, and in more exact/realistic terms; why wasn't the host of Mordor more prepared to meet Aragorns' attack, seeing that Sauron and the nazgul can communicate rather instantly? Because neither Denethor, not Sauron knew that the Umbar ships had been hijacked by Aragorn. The arrival of the corsairs was planned, so Sauron didn't look too close - he had plenty of other things to look at. 10) Did the Gondorians atempt to cure age? If so, did this accelerate the diminishing of their lives (the clinging to life also diminished the lifelenght of the numenoreans, albeit in a different context)? I think the clinging to life and the diminishing of the lifespan are related, both being manifestations of the Shadow on the people. 11)How come Aragorn calls Elrond "the eldest of our race"? Elrond is the brother of Elros, the first King of Numenor.. 12)Did it puzzle you the way Faramir recognized Aragorn as his king? I think he was prepared to his coming by Frodo and Sam's revelations. I also believe that Faramir's soul, affected by Black Shadow, wandered in the Shadow-word much as Frodo's after his Morgul wound. It seems that in this world the people's fëar walk undisguised: the nazgul are plain to see, Glorfindel shines and Aragorn looks unmistakably the King. That's how Sauron recognised what he was during their Palantir session. (On the other hand, if I am right, why didn't the nazgul recognise Aragorn as King at Weathertop? Or did they, but kept the info to themselves?) 13)How much do you think Aragorn's kiss mattered in waking Eowyn up? Ahem... 14)Do Gandalf's words: (...) imply a patriarchical rohirrimic society, oppressing women rights (through our current worldview)? I don't think the current worldview is applicable here. Gondoreans or High Numenoreans never sent women to war, and for good reason. Medieval warfare was mostly based on brutal strength. Fighters were hacking each other with heavy swords. Fencing, as such, was invented when?- 18-th century, I believe. A women, no matter how well trained, could never match a man. |
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03-05-2006, 09:25 AM | #7 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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I don't think that if Aragorn would be "out of picture" the Elves and the Wizard would wholeheartedly accepted the new ruler Inrahil. He was just a temporary fill-in. Quote:
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03-05-2006, 06:16 PM | #8 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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And it was right after the time Thorongil left Gondor in 2980, understanding that Denethor would never surrender the rule to him willingly. Boromir was born in 2978, Faramir in 2984. It seems Aragorn told his friend Gandalf about the Steward's attitude, and the wizard hurried to Minas Tirith himself, to try to influence the next generation of the Stewards. He failed with Boromir, it seems, but succeeded with Faramir. Very probably in Mithrandir's schemes Boromir had to disappear anyway. It was luck that he was killed by orcs... |
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03-07-2006, 10:59 AM | #9 | |
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But when Boromir was gone, all modesty aside, he inagurated himself with the full title, missing nothing: "I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and I am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dunadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor". |
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03-07-2006, 04:51 PM | #10 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Yes you are right.
And it seems Boromir would have never accepted Aragorn, no more than Denethor. That's what Faramir says of his brother: Quote:
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03-08-2006, 03:29 PM | #11 | |
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If Gandalf planned anything for Boromir or Denethor, I do not think he would have harmed them directly. (IMHO) I think he would have tried to convince them (or provide proper proofs) that the true king has returned. If Boromir and/or Denethor refused to accept the return of the king I am not sure what (if anything) Gandalf would have done. It is possible that Gandalf would let the people of Gondor resolve their own problems once the ring was destroyed.
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03-10-2006, 02:07 PM | #12 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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- Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death, answered Gandalf. Quote:
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03-11-2006, 10:28 AM | #13 | |||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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He DID prepare the Coup-d'etat - yes, for the universal Good, but still... Making persons disappear - perhaps he didn't need to? He had Fate working for him, like the Ring finding Bilbo and Gollum biting off Frodo's finger, and Boromir being killed by orcs. Perhaps he had the foreknowledge of these events - so why bother? |
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03-13-2006, 01:33 AM | #14 | ||
Elf Lord
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As Gandalf said, the palantirs don’t lie. Denethor was not mad, he “saw great forces arrayed against him in Mordor, and more still being gathered, he saw that which truly is” (RotK.”The last debate“) He was realistic, as Gandalf had to admit later . Denethor, as an experienced warrior, saw that the odds are not on Gondor’s side. (Indeed, the victory on the Pelennor field was not a decisive event for Gondor, and to march after that with what was left of the army of the West to the gates of Morannon, where were stationed ready and able the fresh forces of Mordor, was equivalent to the mass suicide commitmemt. They were saved by miracle, which was nobody expected to happen.) This is why he tells Gandalf that the wind, which is carrying up a fleet , won’t bring the hopes he is counting on. Quote:
So, Denethor knew that Aragorn’s coming was invetable and such opposition, as he, wouldn’t be spared by the new ruler. Most probably he and others, who will support him, would be quietly eliminated, or sent as far away from the capital, as it possible, “rehabilitating the lost territory” (Letter #244)on the borders of ever hostile Harad in the “main eastward outposts” of the Ithilien, as it happened even with so loyal Faramir. Shortly, to stay in the places with a highest probability to get killed. Denethor was a brilliant reader of characters and saw plane and clear Gandalf’s ambitious game and his role in this game, and, as man of honour, he did not want to be a part of it, nor he wanted for his son to lead“the life diminished”, “love halved” and “honour abated”. I’am sure that playing a host for all five wizards and being on very friendly terms with Saruman, Denethor guessed of the true nature and of the immense power of the Grey Wizard. He set ablaze himself not because he lost all hopes for the victory. Indeed, he is SURE that with Gandalf’s help the victory of Gondor is imminent , otherwise he would not be talking about living with honour abated under the ruling of " the last of a ragged house long bereft of dignity". So, he decided to self-eliminate himself, but before that he wants to scare Gandalf and to check on his motives towards Faramir, what role to play he prepared for him. And sure enough, anxious to save his grant for peace in the after-war Gondor, Gandalf blew it out:” To me it would not seem that a Steward who faithfully surrenders his charge is diminished in love or honour…And at the least you shall not rob your son of his choice…” Last edited by Olmer : 03-13-2006 at 09:51 AM. |
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03-13-2006, 04:35 AM | #15 |
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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Olmer, I'm a bit confused by exactly what you're trying to say... do you mean that you too think, like Denethor, that Aragorn should not have been king, and that Denethor or one of his sons would have made a better one?
And, you talk of Gandalf's ambitious game, but what exactly does Gandalf gain by such a game? It is Aragorn who, from a nameless Ranger becomes the King of Gondor. Gandalf simply disappears west when its all done, and loses the power of his ring as well.
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03-17-2006, 05:21 PM | #16 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Those of the wizards who failed are not even allowed to return back home! Gandalf saw it by himself when he was killed by the Barlog. He was kicked back to ME in no time. As for losing the power of his Ring, Gandalf is the one of the wielders of the Three who has the least to suffer. Galadriel and Elrond loose their enchanted realms and the will to continue living in ME. Gandalf simply goes home, and remains as powerful as he once was, before he was sent on the Mission. Want a laugh? Here is a funny story featuring Gandalf giving an account of his failure to Manwe. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2579515/1/ |
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03-26-2006, 01:17 PM | #17 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Thanks so much for picking up my tremendous slack on this one Landroval! Well done!
I'll try to add to it when I can.
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11-30-2007, 08:41 AM | #18 | ||||||||||||
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Imrahil was related to Denethor (wasn't Finduilas of the Dol Amroth-line?) so the task of command would in absence of both Denethor and Faramir have gone automatically to him. Quote:
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If he could indeed command the end of his life, he choose not to, but instead resorted to fire. It could be that the laying down one's life at will needed a certain steady state of mind. Considering Denethor was half mad by desperation at the end, he may not have possessed the skill anymore. Quote:
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I also believe Sauron quite lost track of Aragorn in Rohan, before the latter took the Path of the Dead. Aragorn turning up at the coast and commandeering the Umbar fleet may have happened too rapidly for Sauron to pass this on to the armies near Minas Tirith. And even in the possibility that Sauron did know the Umbar fleet had been taken, he may still have thought they could be handled. He didn't expect the Rohirrim to arrive so timely, he may have thought the Gondorean defenses were too demoralised by now to even consider a sortie, and he clearly didn't expect his darkness to break so rapidly. All these factors also determine the success of the army on the corsair fleet. Quote:
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11-30-2007, 07:41 PM | #19 | |
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11-30-2007, 08:08 PM | #20 |
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Procrastinas in extremis
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