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#1 | ||
Mootis per forum
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The Silmarillion Ch 12: Of Men
This is a very short chapter. It’s like a stop in the story: it doesn’t narrate too much things, but the general tone is very poetical so lots of ideas are suggested in it. I’ll proceed by quoting paragraphs and commenting what I have thought about, and sometimes proposing questions for debating. Any corrections, additions or oppositions will be very, very welcomed.
![]() Readings: - The Silmarillion. XII Of Men. - BOLT? (I haven’t read those two) - Quenta Silmarillion (HOME, 5): it has slight differences with the final text that may result interesting. - Later Quenta Silmallion (HOME, 11): I don’t think this add anything at all. - Myths Transformed (HOME, 10) : I haven’t commented anything about it, but the cosmic change that JRRT had in mind at this point would altered the date of the awakening of Men, and other things as the relation between the Sun and the Men. The Sun, the Chicken and the Egg. Quote:
Also this poetical paragraph have made me noticed that Men share their mortality (I’m not speaking of their Doom ) with the nature: animals and plants, with all the creatures that waked up and grew with the Sun; while Elves share their immortality (or long, long life but confined to this world ![]() Quote:
But, what was before, the myth or the metaphor? On the one hand, the metaphor of the light is quite unoriginal, and its relation with the travelling of the Sun could be a good basis to build a mythology, since many myths have been related to the attraction that Men have to the Sun. In the other hand, the original will of Tolkien of building a British mythology and the nuclear importance of his dream about the ship riding the great waves from the west may be two points to argue the primacy of the myth. Anyway, perhaps those ideas has little to do with this chapter and may result quite obscure and unimportant, but I’ve given some thought to them and wanted to throw it somewhere ![]() Another thing I’ve noticed is that it’s only in this chapter where we are spoken about this “tradition” that makes Men wander following the course of the Sun. In other chapters we’re told that the Dark Elves spoke to the Atani about the Light in the West and so they began their wandering trying to escape from the Shadow. This is the tradition that we find in the chapter about The Coming of Men into the West and in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. Why two different traditions? The first one (the Sun) shows the Atani as a new beginning in Arda (the second theme of the Music), a new people with a new destiny. The second one (the Light of the Valar) would present Men as “guests” in a world made for the Elves (words of Andreth): the seek a Light as Elves, but no Valar have come to guide them, nobody has invited them to follow, and in the end they’ll discover that they cannot reach that Light. They are fooled by his Doom. Any comments? (1/3)
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#2 | ||||||||
Mootis per forum
Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999
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Meeting other Peoples... or wanting to!
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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#3 | |
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The Doom of Men.
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The comment: Here and in Andreth’s words in the Athrabeth we see that Valar doesn’t seem much concerned with men. In Myths Transformed, Tolkien says something about the estrangement and resentment that Men felt towards the Valar passing to the traditions on the Silmarillion in Númenor. But, actually, should Men feel any “religious link” towards the Valar as the Eldar seem to have? The desire: that the Athrabeth may not be a pretext for SGH to turn this thread into another Finrod’s thread ![]() (3/3)
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#4 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
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According to that chapter, Men had only known the Dark Elves in the wild lands. Since all the languages of the Quendi were of one origin, and Men learned the language of the Dark Elves, then the language of Beor and his folk resembled the Elven-tongue.
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#5 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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All these chapter intros are so great, and this one is no exception. Go Gordy!
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From another point of view I think it is natural to have several traditions among Men about their early history and their purpose. It is not easy to maintain the myths consistent with each other, when people are spread widely and stories are told through many generations. It should not be like the Elves, who will have among themselves living memories of the Valar and other things that were long ages ago. I do not think that Men are fooled by the Doom. They cannot reach the Light in Valinor, that's true, but they may reach another Light after death, when they leave the world and presumably go to stay with Iluvatar. Therefore, as Finrod says, they're the greater people of the Children. When Men think otherwise, it is because they, and all of Middle Earth, is influenced by Morgoth. I think Andreth is to some extent fooled by her bitterness and sorrow. She lacks Estel (Finrod again ![]() I've got more to say - but later ![]()
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 08-25-2003 at 12:47 PM. |
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#6 | |
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#7 | |||||
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#8 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Athrabeth? Did someone say Athrabeth?
*gets misty-eyed* "North away ....."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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This passage from the Athrabeth, where Finrod speaks to Andreth about the Valar, comes into mind: Quote:
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#10 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: The Silmarillion Ch 12: Of Men
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#11 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yes, the "self-cursed" in the list of names of Men is pretty harsh...
I can think of 2 reasons why - one is of course the part in Athrabeth about their choice to listen to the Second Voice - this was a choice they made themselves, so they are self-cursed, but how would the Eldar know this? Perhaps it's just a reference to how Men are less bound by fate than the Elves, and seem to be all too often rather good at making bad choices ![]()
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#12 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I remember reading something interesting once about how so much of the human brain seems to be unused. It was theorized that in our unfallen, pre-sin state the entire capacity of the brain was used - Adam and Eve were really incredibly mighty beings, IOW. But after the fall, God, in His mercy, greatly limited our brain power to limit the damage we could do and the suffering we could inflict on others. An interesting thought - for after all, an intelligent grown-up can inflict much more suffering and damage on those around him/her than a very young child. Of course we also lost a large capacity for developing good and helpful things, but these would have been far overshadowed by the bad things we could have done. So I think that Iluvatar made the shorter lifespans Andreth talks about for merciful reasons, not for "I'll show THEM!" reasons.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#13 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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#14 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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#15 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think that also Men will have shorter lives when they turn to the dark forces, like what we see in the Numenoreans, but the main change came about by a special action of Iluvatar. I think Finrod is probably right - "...could the Morgoth do this? No, I say."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-26-2003 at 05:36 PM. |
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#16 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Does it not say that because Men listened to the wrong voice, that Iluvatar decided that he would bring them to the Timeless Halls, so they would know who he was?
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#17 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't remember that; I'll have to look it up.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#18 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#19 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Posts: 15,254
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Whew! That's pretty clear, then, that Iluvatar shortened the life of men!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#20 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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