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12-05-2015, 02:28 AM | #1 | |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
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What did YOU think about Frodo meeting Bilbo in Elrond’s House?
I finally started re-reading LotR Tuesday. I’m about to begin “Council of Elrond”.
In “Many Meetings”, there is a passage that bothers me. It’s a little obscure. Peter Jackson interpreted in a way very different what I had always imagined. I’ve reread it many times, but it still looks to me like what I had always seen before in my mind. First the passage, followed by how I’ve always interpreted it, then what Jackson did with it. Finally the question to Entmoot: What did you think of this passage when you first read it? Quote:
Peter Jackson interpreted this passage to mean that Bilbo transformed into a hissing Gollum, horrifying and repelling Frodo, whereupon Bilbo passed his [Bilbo’s] hand across his [Bilbo’s] eyes. Because Tolkien left the antecedents for his and his ambiguous, all four interpretations are possible. I’m out this thread. All I want to know is, What did you think when you read the passage? |
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12-05-2015, 11:14 AM | #2 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I always thought the movie-scene with Bilbo's transformation was a bit over the top but it works for the movie-audience to hint that Bilbo could easily have become like Gollum if he had held on to the Ring.
In the book I found the scene more moving. In the movie, Frodo looks at Bilbo and sees something different. In the book, Bilbo looks at Frodo and sees something different. I always thought Bilbo saw Frodo's distaste at Bilbo's yearning for the Ring when he quickly looked at Frodo's face and at that point realises what the Ring was doing to him and to see that look on a beloved relative's face is a painful thing. I then thought Bilbo passed his hand across his own eyes to break the connection with the Ring, a final giving up of the Ring. He had been made to give up the Ring before, By Gandalf, and leave it for Frodo. But he may have had ideas that if he were to see Frodo again, in better days, maybe his nephew would return the Ring to him. But taking his eyes of it and asking Frodo to put it away was like his own choice to give it up, permanently this time. Another interpretation that came to me only after reading and re-reading is that maybe the look on Frodo's face reveals to Bilbo that his nephew is now coming under the spell of the Ring and what an ugly thing it is to see. This then would make Bilbo finally realise that the Ring is no longer his, and that any action to take it from Frodo could destroy his nephew. Hence also the following apologies. Why else would he be sorry for Frodo to bear this burden, if he only realises now what a burden it is, and not just a useful trinket? It was probably only at this point that Bilbo didn't just feel regret for having left the Ring to someone else, but also guilt. Regardless of which interpretation I choose to follow, I always picture the scene with Bilbo passing his hands across his own eyes to stop seeing something he doesn't want to see anymore. |
12-05-2015, 12:17 PM | #3 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: May 2015
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I agree that Frodo's look of distaste was both a look of insight into Ring-lust and disappointment in seeing in in his beloved uncle. I certainly think the Ring's baneful influence was at work on Frodo at that instant, maybe a wee bit of jealousy? It certainly worked on Boromir at a greater distance
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12-06-2015, 06:02 PM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2008
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I don't think two different people are meant in this sentence with "his", and if c was meant (if this was the intention) Tolkien could have written: "Bilbo looked quickly at Frodo's face and passed his hand across Frodo's eyes."
And to mean that Bilbo passed Frodo's hand over Frodo's eyes, or Bilbo passing Frodo's hand over Bilbo's eyes (b and d), both seem a much more unexpected gesture to my mind, that is, usng someone else's hand to do either action rather than using your own hand. But again I also don't think "his" should refer to two different people. For me it's: Bilbo passed his own hand over his own eyes. In my opinion |
12-07-2015, 11:57 AM | #5 | |
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Quote:
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“Faërie contains many things besides elves and fays, and besides dwarfs, witches, trolls, giants, or dragons; it holds the seas, the sun, the moon, the sky; and the earth, and all things that are in it: tree and bird, water and stone, wine and bread, and ourselves, mortal men, when we are enchanted.” - JRRT. "On Faerie-Stories" |
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12-07-2015, 02:11 PM | #6 |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
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I always interpreted it as 'Bilbo passed his own hand across his own eyes'.
Bilbo is the focus in this paragraph, and I agree with Galin that Tolkien would have mentioned Frodo's name again if Frodo's eyes were involved. I think Bilbo's action has to do with what he understands when he looks at Frodo's face, he reacts with covering his eyes against what he sees - which may well be giving him a better understanding of what the ring does to its bearer.
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12-08-2015, 11:36 PM | #7 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Quote:
And I think it's pretty clear that Bilbo passes his own hand across his own eyes. Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-09-2015, 02:47 PM | #8 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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No, I'm saying that Bilbo also looks at Frodo and sees something specific. (When you look in the abyss, the abyss also look into you sorta thing) We never learn exactly what it is since we're most of the time in Frodo's POV.
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02-02-2016, 09:45 PM | #9 |
Elf Lord
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I've always read that as Bilbo passes his own hands over his own eyes, and for myself have no doubt that's how it reads, and is, and was and will ever be
I find it odd no one has mentioned the context of this brief event, and where they were at the time... If in the Hall of Fire mortal hobbits can be transported by song to half awake dreams and visions through time and space and over sundered seas, it hardly seems odd for both Frodo and Bilbo, both ring bearers, to have this moment almost of vision, or shared understanding / enlightenment... ? As to the Cinematic take on the scene, even if they reversed it, i thought it worked very well, and this is where some visual creativity is welcomed and the reversed POV for me just wasn't an issue and in fact it added to the Film- and that's rare enough. Ive always thought the more interesting thing was that 'shadow'... and its ephereal qualities, and once passed no one else ever noticed anything, and music and light was about them - ie it was a shared moment of vision and understanding shared by Bilbo and frodo alone.... except perhaps for that ordained "mysterious shadow"? |
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