10-27-2005, 12:43 AM | #1 | ||
Elf Lord
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The Iran Nuclear Controversy
Something new has happened in the Iran nuclear controversy that I felt like bringing up. Discussion of the nuclear controversy can be done in this thread, as well as other discussion of the Iranian state, its politics and such.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-27-2005, 04:43 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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OK now imagine you are Iran.
In 1979 you overthrew a monarchy which you regarded as oppressing your religion and betraying its people. You fall out publicly with the US, the major supporter of the monarchy. In 198? your next-door neighbour attacked, with the support of the US and other allies of your former monarch. There followed a protracted war in which hundreds of thousands, if not millions, died. In 2003, this neighbour, by now out of favour with the West, is invaded by the US and its allies under a false pretext. Now they have hundreds of thousands of their troops, with the most advanced weapons in the world, positioned right next to you (think Russia and China combining to invade Mexico). Meanwhile, the US President branded you as one of the bastions of an "axis of evil". He spouts endless rhetoric about being at war, and refuses to rule out invading you just because you might have WMDs or something. Meanwhile meanwhile, North Korea, also part of this axis, GETS nuclear weapons. Everything goes quiet: the US stops threatening to invade them. If I was Iranian, I would want nukes YESTERDAY. Last edited by The Gaffer : 10-27-2005 at 04:44 AM. |
10-27-2005, 06:57 AM | #3 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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You wouldn't need them if you stopped threatening your neighbors, permitted UN inspection of the facilities, permitted more human rights in your country, etc. etc. etc. but hey, facts don't matter to some
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10-27-2005, 08:43 AM | #4 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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10-27-2005, 10:01 AM | #5 | |
Elf Lord
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10-27-2005, 10:23 AM | #6 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 10-28-2005 at 10:43 AM. |
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10-27-2005, 10:24 AM | #7 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Do you forget the American Embassy Hostage episode? Our bed may be there but that doesn't mean we want to build a development. sometimes answering you with metaphors is most challenging.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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10-27-2005, 11:17 AM | #8 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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the first step is admitting the fact that both sides do wrong... frequently
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-27-2005, 11:20 AM | #9 |
The Black Númenórean
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Nope, I haven't forgotten. Nor has anyone else, though for most that I know, its regretted.
If America is really scared shitless of these guys, why don’t the unilaterally slap an embargo on them, no oil goes in or out? They didn’t need UN permission to go to war.... That’s the only thing these Mother f-ers got going for them, in six months to a year, mullahs will be collapsed and gone. No oil= no cash= no power. Worked on Mosadeq, who was elected by the people and who actually built a functioning democracy (British style, with a parliament). Why does America and other countries keep buying oil from these jokers, who are sworn enemies...axis of evil....blah blah...when that money isn’t going anywhere but to weapons funding? Y'know, I really would like an embargo, it will hurt me and my family and Iran in general, but we can survive and sort our own. And it will be infinitely better than what we got now. HOWEVER, that is highly unlikely to happen, as is America invading Iran. Though, the latter is more likely than the former, and I don’t give a damn whether its rocks or nukes, I see anyone coming into my home, and making a mess, setting up a puppet government, I am going to kill them. And die myself more than likely. But I wont be the first, nor last.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. Last edited by Spock : 10-27-2005 at 11:48 AM. |
10-27-2005, 11:47 AM | #10 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Quote:
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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10-27-2005, 11:49 AM | #11 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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"I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to the universe. It hates me, you know" --Londo
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 10-27-2005 at 12:13 PM. |
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10-27-2005, 02:33 PM | #12 | |
Elf Lord
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Last Sane Person:
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Last edited by Spock : 10-27-2005 at 02:35 PM. Reason: baiting |
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10-27-2005, 03:34 PM | #13 |
The Black Númenórean
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No I mean that if I see anyone coming INTO Iran with the same intent as they had in Iraq, then I would kill them. I dont give a damn what happens in Iraq, so long as it stays there.
__________________
Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
10-27-2005, 04:23 PM | #14 | ||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
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so you feel that Iraq is NOT better off without Saddam? i'm just asking to get a feel for this thread i'm not sure what it about exactly
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10-27-2005, 07:03 PM | #15 |
The Black Númenórean
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Oh, it is, I have no problem with that. And Iran has one less loony with chemical weapons next door. But I really don't care other than that. Iraq isn't really a problem anymore after the war.
__________________
Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
10-27-2005, 07:41 PM | #16 | ||
Elf Lord
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Gaffer, when did we threaten Iran with attack? We haven't ruled out the possibility, but I haven't heard us make any direct threats. Also, I never denied that they don't have reason to want nuclear weapons. Everyone has reason to want them. But if Iran was willing to give up seeking that ability, the country would receive significant economic benefits and freedom from US accusations. They would be showing their good will to the world and would be freed from the likelihood of attack. At present, it is a definite possibility that we may attack. That threat would greatly diminish if Iran complied with our reasonable demands. Last Sane Person, don't you know the US has opened the door to free elections in Iraq? The UN spokesman in Iraq has said that they were free, as well. This is no puppet government we're talking about. Sure, for a while they might be so dependent on the US that they couldn't say anything against us even if they wanted to. They are becoming more and more self sufficient, however. Since we aren't spreading puppet governments but rather are proliferating freedom, why would you object to a US policy that attempts to forcibly keep Iran from nuclear weapons? Especially when Iran makes such statements as it recently did against Israel!
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-28-2005, 02:51 AM | #17 | ||
Elf Lord
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But I wanted to ask you directly: you're a thoughtful person, do you see how, from an Iranian perspective, the most sensible thing to do to defend your country would be to get nuclear weapons? |
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10-28-2005, 09:00 AM | #18 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i know it's a hard, and often humbling pov to take... but conflict resolution always has to eventually come down to compromise and understanding... confrontation is never an ultimate solution
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-28-2005, 11:56 AM | #19 | |||
Elf Lord
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Sure, Iran can view the invasion of Iraq as a threat. It can view the invasion of Iraq as a threat because they are doing the VERY SAME THING that Iraq was accused of doing. Libia gave up its WMD objectives, and Iran should see how fully that country has entered our good graces. Meanwhile, Iran should look at Iraq's refusal to give up its WMD objectives, and should see from there what happened next. US policy isn't that difficult to predict, based upon its history. Quote:
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"Yes" in that it makes complete sense for any country to want nuclear weapons. They almost make it certain that no one will attack you. They also may produce a delectable economic package, if you choose to give them up. "No" in that it is apparent that the US and other nations will crack down upon a group or nation that pursues the production of WMD, and Iran has about ten years to go before it may actually be able to produce nuclear weapons. In the short term: Pursuing the construction of nuclear weapons is likely to get you conquered. If Iran manages to survive that long, however, nuclear weapons would be (to them) a wonderful thing.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-28-2005, 11:58 AM | #20 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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