Genocide in the Two Towers

Lizra · 09-03-2002, 08:37 AM

I watched one of The Two Towers promos last night. PJ mentions that the movie is about genocide, the genocide of men. (the battle of Helms Deep in particular) Sauron and Saruman, allies, have decided that the race of men should be eliminated. I never picked this idea up when reading the books. I am a word gobbler when I read, so I could have missed this concept, I suppose. Was it there?

BeardofPants · 09-03-2002, 08:57 AM

I didn't get genocide. Sounds like a PJ POV to me....

I got dominion rather than genocide. Remember that both Sauron and Saruman had men working for them; not just orcs.

I could be wrong though.

Lizra · 09-03-2002, 09:10 AM

Well, that's kind of the same veiw I took! Seemed like the "women and children" bit gets flamed a little (in the new movie) . There's so many things going on in the books, I gues you could make a thousand movies!

Hasty Ent · 09-03-2002, 01:19 PM

I agree with BoP, the genocide bit is PJ's POV -- and something to feed media types shaky on the LotR storyline.

Urksnik the Sleek · 09-03-2002, 03:20 PM

Apart from the fact that I never saw Sauron and Saruman as true allies, as they both wanted the ring for themselves, if their ultimate aim was genocide, who would they have left to have dominion over when they won? It doen't make a great deal of sense to me.

Draken · 09-03-2002, 03:52 PM

Hmm as the most morally weak and corruptable of all the races not created by Melkor himself, I always viewed men as potentially useful to the bad guys.

And with the Dominion of Men rising to eventually supplant all the older races of Middle Earth, in a way it is the other way round.

Rána Eressëa · 09-03-2002, 05:21 PM

I never picked up on genocide. That's PJ's POV alright.

webwizard333 · 09-03-2002, 06:29 PM

I personally never picked up on the genocide bit myself, just that they wanted complete dominion over man and were willing to kill those who did not immediately join them.

Lanelf · 09-04-2002, 06:15 AM

Genocide of Men? *shrug* well, I didn't find it that way... Hope PJ doesn't overdo it. *wanders off muttering* Genocide? How did he come up with that? Who knows the mind of the almighty director, but of course nowhere near as almighty as Tolkien... In fact not *that* almighty at all...

Black Breathalizer · 09-04-2002, 08:52 AM

Once upon a time a solider from Rohan was ambushed by a group of orcs. Just before they cut the poor guy's throat, he cries out...

"Excuse me, but am I being killed as an act of war or as an act of genocide???"

The orcs stop and look puzzled. After an awkward pause their leader grins at the man and replies, "Har har har...you're dead either way, bub!"

They kill him.

The End.

Blackheart · 09-04-2002, 01:05 PM

Actually, Genocide doesn't neccesarily mean the destruction of all men. Just a particular type of man.

The Rohirrim. The Straw-heads. The Forgoil.

The Dunlandings would have been all for a campaign to wipe out the Rohirrim.

But no, I don't particularlly see Sauruman as the type to waste resources like that. Dominion would have been his aim.

But I also don't doubt that he wouldn't scruple to offer such rhetoric to his Dunland "allies".

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 05:32 PM

Where does it say that he wanted to wipe them ALL out? References please.

I'm sure that both Sauron or Saruman would have gladly accepted some turncoat strawheads.... Wormtongue.

Lizra · 09-04-2002, 07:54 PM

It was the special features disc, (of course) in the part about the Two Towers where it starts with PJ driving his car while talking about the new movie. I don't remember what it was called, there were only two items about TT. I think (I have a notoriously bad memory, don't have a cow if I'm wrong!) it was the one that was NOT about the making of TT. I avoid all the "making of" things. Anyway, I had only rented it so I can't check for you at this time. PJ is driving his car when he's talking about this (I think!!

)

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 07:57 PM

Thanks for that, Lizra, but I was actually asking BH to back up his genocide idea.

Lizra · 09-04-2002, 08:03 PM

OK! Sorry... Never Mind

LuthienTinuviel · 09-04-2002, 08:42 PM

pj....

i never ever ever got Genocide out of ANY of it.
but im just ornery today.

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 08:50 PM

Well, this is what generally happens when you put a kiwi and a camera together in a car. He/she will talk absolute crap.

olsonm · 09-04-2002, 10:38 PM

PJ's talking about the movie. There's no Dunharrow (reportedly)so Helm's Deep is the last refuge of the Rohirrim and genocide is the most likely outcome if they lose.
Blackheart is right. Genocide doen't have to be all men. Many times in ROTK characters talk about how they will all die if Sauron wins. Big S has plenty of men in the East and the South that are under his control and who would move into western Middle-Earth should he win.
However, I think the most likely explanation is that 'genocide' is just a convenient word for PJ to use [for sound-bite purposes] to describe the main plot of the movie.

Black Breathalizer · 09-05-2002, 08:10 AM

I agree with Olsonm. It's just marketing. The word, "genocide" makes it sound much more sinister and evil.

****************

Trust PJ

BeardofPants · 09-05-2002, 08:14 AM

Heh. Not bloody likely.

09-03-2002, 08:37 AM	#1
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Genocide in the Two Towers I watched one of The Two Towers promos last night. PJ mentions that the movie is about genocide, the genocide of men. (the battle of Helms Deep in particular) Sauron and Saruman, allies, have decided that the race of men should be eliminated. I never picked this idea up when reading the books. I am a word gobbler when I read, so I could have missed this concept, I suppose. Was it there?

09-03-2002, 08:57 AM	#2
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I didn't get genocide. Sounds like a PJ POV to me.... I got dominion rather than genocide. Remember that both Sauron and Saruman had men working for them; not just orcs. I could be wrong though. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-03-2002, 03:20 PM	#5
Urksnik the Sleek Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: under the misty mountains Posts: 33	Apart from the fact that I never saw Sauron and Saruman as true allies, as they both wanted the ring for themselves, if their ultimate aim was genocide, who would they have left to have dominion over when they won? It doen't make a great deal of sense to me. __________________ The world was fair, the mountains tall In Elder Days before the fall Of mighty kings in Nargothrond And Gondolin, who now beyond The Western Seas have passed away The world was fair in Durin's Day.

09-03-2002, 03:52 PM	#6
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	Hmm as the most morally weak and corruptable of all the races not created by Melkor himself, I always viewed men as potentially useful to the bad guys. And with the Dominion of Men rising to eventually supplant all the older races of Middle Earth, in a way it is the other way round. __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

09-03-2002, 06:29 PM	#8
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	I personally never picked up on the genocide bit myself, just that they wanted complete dominion over man and were willing to kill those who did not immediately join them. __________________ Boo!

09-03-2002, 09:10 AM	#3
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Well, that's kind of the same veiw I took! Seemed like the "women and children" bit gets flamed a little (in the new movie) . There's so many things going on in the books, I gues you could make a thousand movies!

09-03-2002, 01:19 PM	#4
Hasty Ent Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 516	I agree with BoP, the genocide bit is PJ's POV -- and something to feed media types shaky on the LotR storyline.

09-03-2002, 05:21 PM	#7
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	I never picked up on genocide. That's PJ's POV alright.

09-04-2002, 06:15 AM	#9
Lanelf Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Second Drawer Down Posts: 407	Genocide of Men? shrug well, I didn't find it that way... Hope PJ doesn't overdo it. wanders off muttering Genocide? How did he come up with that? Who knows the mind of the almighty director, but of course nowhere near as almighty as Tolkien... In fact not that almighty at all... __________________ Hey, I'm back! resounding silence You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster

09-04-2002, 08:52 AM	#10
Black Breathalizer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 828	Once upon a time a solider from Rohan was ambushed by a group of orcs. Just before they cut the poor guy's throat, he cries out... "Excuse me, but am I being killed as an act of war or as an act of genocide???" The orcs stop and look puzzled. After an awkward pause their leader grins at the man and replies, "Har har har...you're dead either way, bub!" They kill him. The End.

09-04-2002, 01:05 PM	#11
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Actually, Genocide doesn't neccesarily mean the destruction of all men. Just a particular type of man. The Rohirrim. The Straw-heads. The Forgoil. The Dunlandings would have been all for a campaign to wipe out the Rohirrim. But no, I don't particularlly see Sauruman as the type to waste resources like that. Dominion would have been his aim. But I also don't doubt that he wouldn't scruple to offer such rhetoric to his Dunland "allies". __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

09-04-2002, 05:32 PM	#12
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Where does it say that he wanted to wipe them ALL out? References please. I'm sure that both Sauron or Saruman would have gladly accepted some turncoat strawheads.... Wormtongue. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-04-2002, 07:54 PM	#13
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	It was the special features disc, (of course) in the part about the Two Towers where it starts with PJ driving his car while talking about the new movie. I don't remember what it was called, there were only two items about TT. I think (I have a notoriously bad memory, don't have a cow if I'm wrong!) it was the one that was NOT about the making of TT. I avoid all the "making of" things. Anyway, I had only rented it so I can't check for you at this time. PJ is driving his car when he's talking about this (I think!! )

09-04-2002, 07:57 PM	#14
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Thanks for that, Lizra, but I was actually asking BH to back up his genocide idea. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-04-2002, 08:03 PM	#15
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	OK! Sorry... Never Mind

09-04-2002, 08:42 PM	#16
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	pj.... i never ever ever got Genocide out of ANY of it. but im just ornery today. __________________

09-04-2002, 08:50 PM	#17
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Well, this is what generally happens when you put a kiwi and a camera together in a car. He/she will talk absolute crap. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-04-2002, 10:38 PM	#18
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	PJ's talking about the movie. There's no Dunharrow (reportedly)so Helm's Deep is the last refuge of the Rohirrim and genocide is the most likely outcome if they lose. Blackheart is right. Genocide doen't have to be all men. Many times in ROTK characters talk about how they will all die if Sauron wins. Big S has plenty of men in the East and the South that are under his control and who would move into western Middle-Earth should he win. However, I think the most likely explanation is that 'genocide' is just a convenient word for PJ to use [for sound-bite purposes] to describe the main plot of the movie. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

09-05-2002, 08:10 AM	#19
Black Breathalizer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 828	I agree with Olsonm. It's just marketing. The word, "genocide" makes it sound much more sinister and evil. **************** Trust PJ

09-05-2002, 08:14 AM	#20
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Heh. Not bloody likely. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

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