02-03-2003, 12:00 AM | #1 | |||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Who is the Mouth of Sauron?
Who is the Mouth of Sauron?
From the LOTR: The Black Gate Opens Quote:
According to LOTR: Appendix B Quote:
The Black Númenóreans were the ones who were deceived by Sauron when he was captured in Númenor. They took to the worship of Morgoth and they built in Armenelos a mighty temple for him. From The Published Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age Quote:
3320 S.A.; Sauron returns to Mordor. There are two possibilities that I can see. If the Mouth of Sauron is a black Númenórean, then he could be one that escaped the destruction of Númenor by going to either Pelargir or Umbar and entering openly into the Service of Sauron in 3320 of the Second Age. Or, he was a descendant of Black Númenóreans, and entered his service in 2951 of the Third Age. It is in 3019 of the Third Age when Sauron was defeated. In Scenario A, if he entered into his service in 3320 of the Second Age, by the time of the defeat of Sauron, he would have been 3341-3320 = 21 + 3019 = 3040 years in the service of Sauron. In Scenario B, if he entered into his service in 2951 of the Third Age, he would be: 3019 – 2951 = 68 years old in the Service of Sauron. If Scenario A is correct, then it would be coincide with the fact that he was an Original Black Númenórean, but the problem with that is how do you explain the fact that he lived for over 3000 years, and was not a ringwraith? He was a sorcerer, and he knew much of the mind of Sauron, but could he had learned enough to live that long? Granted that if you lived that long, it is possible that you will forget your name. If Scenario B is correct, then the Mouth of Sauron would have been in the Service of Sauron for 68 years and because he was a descendant of Númenóreans, it is possible that he already was 100 or 200 years old. Would 168 or 268 would be long enough to forget your own name?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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02-03-2003, 12:10 AM | #2 | |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Part II
From The War of the Ring: The Black Gates Open
Quote:
Che pensi tu?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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02-03-2003, 12:43 AM | #3 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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Your second scenario is most likely correct, for the following reasons:
1) As you point out, he was still a living, mortal man and not a ringwraith, which means that he couldn't have lived for 3000+ years. 2) The reference to the dark tower 'rising again' better fits the rebuilding in 2951 than the earlier dates, because on each of those occasions the dark tower had never been destroyed 9and thus didn't need rebuilding) 3) He from Gondor, the son of a lord. Since Gondor was founded after the fall of numenor, and most likely did not become well established to the point of having lords and great houses until long after the last alliance of elves and men. 4) He began service with the dark lord in his youth. If we take this to mean 18-12 years of age, then it is quite possible that he could forget his birth name in that time, as do many 'adopted' children who are given new names.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
07-10-2003, 05:39 AM | #4 |
Sapling
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Stockholm
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The Mouth of Sauron
Quite an interesting fellow, been discussed a lot already but here is my theory regarding his status in Sauron's service, if anyone here is visiting the Barrowdowns you might have already seen it, but isn't recycling wonderful?
Anyway, what do we know more of this chap, him being quite a nasty fellow excepted? He was still a man, and he was still living in a very high degree. His status on Mordor then? He rose quickly die to his sourcery and went to Sauron because he was enamoured by the evil knowledge. He is said to have known much of Sauron's mind, growing ever higher in his favour due to hsi cunning. Not to mention that he was crueler than any orc, this makes him seem like the second man in Mordor, especially because he ahs got his free will left. He was an emissary, and in medieval times, those were high born nobles, a very important position, not entrusted to anybody, I would think taht he was considered above the Nazgûl who were simply doing the dirty work for their Master, looking for Rings and commanding armies. Just like Denethor said, he was a spear in Sauron's hand. He must have had some military importance in the Black tower since he is said to be 'lieutenant of Barad dûr', probably he was the second in command. To make a clarification, he was responsible for the war at a strategic level while the Nazgûl ran the lower operational and tactical levels. Look at him as a Chief of Staff and close advisor to the Dark lord. One thing that speaks for this theory is that the Lord of Angmar, A.K.A. Chief of the Nazgûls was his ablest military commander, which I assume means field commander, not staff officer. What speaks for the Nazgul is a few things, chiefly uttered by their opponents. Pippin syas at the battle of the Morannon: If I just could get a blow at that ugly lieutenant I would almost keep pace with Merry's achievement." (or something to that effect) Notice the almost, speaking for their rank. Moreover, Gandalf makes some hints about their status, but all this is very vague. I have here avoided one quite relevant question, who was he before Mordor? My guess would be, as said that eh was a Numenorean that voluntarily crossed over, that must have amde it easier for him to gain Sauron's favour, anyone else habe a theory? Something that interests me is what other roles he might have played? For example, the Messenger that came to Dain seemed pretty nasty, could it possibly be the Mouth of Sauron? Any thoughts? Oh, and on Aristocracy, there was Lords of Gondor before the war of the last alliance. There are two possibilities, either, they just kept the Númenorean rank which is possible, but they did not keep the title Tar so, who knows. The otehr and harder way, was to appoint a new aristocracy after their personal likings and after which people were crafty and cunning, these would then have to be 'thaught' how to 'be' aristocracy. And an upper calss was of course immediatley formed, who would else usurp, live on and govern the vulgar masses, as it was thought necessary. The Aristocracy was an extremely important feature in medieval society and you can imagine how great that need for leadershp must have been when you found an entirely new Kingdom. Since there was 14 years between the foundation nd the invasion of the eastlands, the second theory is possible but still unlikely. Húrin Thalion Last edited by Húrin Thalion : 07-10-2003 at 03:00 PM. |
07-10-2003, 01:26 PM | #5 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
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Welcome to Entmoot!
Since we already had a recent thread about this same subject, I went ahead and merged your excellent post into it.
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07-10-2003, 04:31 PM | #6 |
im quite stupid
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cockermouth
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correct me if im wrong but the Nazgul no longer had to wear there rings to be under the domination of Sauron. He did not have the power to give longer life to man i dont believe so ive allways thought was he wearing a ring of power if so hes one sick bugga seeing what they do to you in the end an all
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Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot |
09-11-2003, 03:38 PM | #7 | |
"The Bomb"
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Some Curious Findings
From LotR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers, part I, section iv, Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion, Stewards:
Quote:
1) I think it also could make sense that he was going back to Mordor, and returning to his post. 2) A. He planned to set a trap for Gandalf, but seeing that he wasn’t falling for it, he aborted mission. B. He was a wise man, he could have simply been building up Denethor’s hate for Gandalf, so that he might make his task of destroying the Ring more difficult. Of course, back then, neither he nor Sauron could have known fully of his involvement in this plot, but they definately did know that he’d be a likely candidate. Someone, maybe Thorongil, let Saruman know anyway. C. He lived in Mordor his whole life, many ages of men. He's earned a vacation. As you can see, I also made bold all the peices that hinted at his identity. I'd also like to point out that he was indeed a captain. Back in Minas Tirith, he had "ranks and rewards" awaiting him. I believe he refused to go back for any 'ceremony' because it would make him seem loyal to Gondor, which he was not. Instead, he promoted himself to Lietenant, which is the position he still claims today. So really, this story fits in more than any others I've heard.
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 09-11-2003 at 08:31 PM. |
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09-12-2003, 01:52 PM | #8 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
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The only problem is that Thorongil is an alias for Aragorn.
But you're right, the things you highlighted from the story do make him seem a very suspicious character! |
09-12-2003, 04:52 PM | #9 |
"The Bomb"
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Crap!!
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? |
09-12-2003, 07:10 PM | #10 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Hate it when that happens, don't you? ]: D
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
09-12-2003, 10:59 PM | #11 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
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Chuckle, well, maybe Aragorn had an evil twin.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
09-15-2003, 02:43 PM | #12 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Darn it, I was going to post that Thoronghil was Aragorn. Late, again.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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