Arwen is Xenaelf?

[Curufinwe]

I havent spent much time here in awhile but it seems like the dialog has gotten a bit shrill over them thar Jackson movies. One aspect of the film that seems to have been heavily criticized was Arwen spiriting off Frodo on Asfaloth across the ford. Apparently Arwen drawing a sword which she never actually uses has turned her into a serialized syndicated musclebound action hero. I'm not exactly sure why this characterization has gained acceptance among those who dislike the film. Drawing a sword in defiance has ruined her character? I think those who have adopted this characterization should educate themselves a bit more on Arwen's lineage if they believe this is an inexcusable bit of create License-before they start referring to Luthien as Red Sonya.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
Drawing a sword in defiance has ruined her character? I think those who have adopted this characterization should educate themselves a bit more on Arwen's lineage if they believe this is an inexcusable bit of create License-before they start referring to Luthien as Red Sonya.

Well then you just don't get it. It's not the fact that it ruined HER character - it's the fact that it weakened FRODO'S character. There is a BIG difference there.

[Elf Girl]

Yes. Disabling Frodo from drawing a sword in defence was the problem with that scene.

[thranduil]

we should feel grateful, none of us really knew how close Jackson came to the sword fighting she elf. pretty close. infact too close for comfort.

[Khamûl]

Actually, we probably helped keep her away from Helm's Deep. PJ said that they were influenced by the immense amount of public outcry from the internet, and I'm sure a fair share came from this board.

[thranduil]

And I'm expecting her to read the "arwen is xenaelf" thread, cry again, and then refuse to be a role in "the hobbit"

[hectorberlioz]

And I'm expecting her to read the "arwen is xenaelf" thread, cry again, and then refuse to be a role in "the hobbit"

you better hope she refuses...
we dont want arwen in the hobbit now do we?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Khamûl
Actually, we probably helped keep her away from Helm's Deep. PJ said that they were influenced by the immense amount of public outcry from the internet, and I'm sure a fair share came from this board.

yes - it was a good thing many of us during the Fellowship of the Ring spoke out against the Flight to the Ford scene. If we didn't - she would have been at Helms Deep as Jackson himself stated.

[Curufinwe]

It sure is easier to say I dont get it when you dont even address the topic. I will be sure to deconstruct that scene later and you can rant on without making any good points then. Whether or not the scene was ruined due to Arwen's role was not the topic. The question was the ridiculous term Xenaelf that has been thrown around entirely innapropriately. I would welcome someone actually attempting to defend it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
It sure is easier to say I dont get it when you dont even address the topic. I will be sure to deconstruct that scene later and you can rant on without making any good points then. Whether or not the scene was ruined due to Arwen's role was not the topic. The question was the ridiculous term Xenaelf that has been thrown around entirely innapropriately. I would welcome someone actually attempting to defend it.

It wasn't thrown around innapropriately because as we know now - jackson was wanting her to fight at Helms deep. Also - if that was your only topic of discussion was concerning the Xen-Elf warrior title then why did you say this...

Drawing a sword in defiance has ruined her character? I think those who have adopted this characterization should educate themselves a bit more on Arwen's lineage if they believe this is an inexcusable bit of create License-before they start referring to Luthien as Red Sonya.

Arwen NEVER drew a sword in Lord of the Rings and as I said - Jackson intended for her to be a much more action oriented character, which was clear from that scene. He backed off ONLY because of complaints once FotR came out, otherwise she would have gone to Helms Deep.

[Curufinwe]

so your basing this characterization on scenes that were cut and never released? well argued

[cassiopeia]

I think this is it: most people don't mind Arwen taking Glorfindel's role. They do mind her taking away from the courage Frodo has in the books. I might say this again as well: most people don't mind Tom Bombadil being left out, and most people didn't expect a movie which followed the book scene-by-scene.

Well, she is XenaArwen/XenaElf in the movies compared to in the books. In the book she makes a banner and gives Frodo her star-jewel (not Evenstar!!) In the movies she resuces Frodo after he was stabbed, nearly was given a fighting role at Helm's Deep and is involved in the ROTK as well. Anyway, does it really matter what name we give her?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
so your basing this characterization on scenes that were cut and never released? well argued

No - I'm basing it on HOW he characterized her at the ford. Just because she didn't swing her sword - doesn't change the fact that she came off as Xena-Elf. Sorry you don't like the characterization, but that is what she was and that was where she was DEFINETLY meant to be.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I think this is it: most people don't mind Arwen taking Glorfindel's role. They do mind her taking away from the courage Frodo has in the books. I might say this again as well: most people don't mind Tom Bombadil being left out, and most people didn't expect a movie which followed the book scene-by-scene.

EXACTLY!

Well, she is XenaArwen/XenaElf in the movies compared to in the books. In the book she makes a banner and gives Frodo her star-jewel (not Evenstar!!) In the movies she resuces Frodo after he was stabbed, nearly was given a fighting role at Helm's Deep and is involved in the ROTK as well. Anyway, does it really matter what name we give her?

I for one wil continue to call her Xena-Elf and Xena-Arwen for EXACTLY your points Cass. If ohers don't like it - then don't read them. It's the way she is portrayed in the films. People should be angry at Jackson for giving her an overblown role like that and taking away one of Frodo's greatest moments.

[cassiopeia]

I don't mind Arwen's role in the FOTR (I dislike it, however, in TTT). If she had been given a role that was close to Glorfindel's in the book, I would be very happy. But then she rides with Frodo to the Ford, says the crappy "if you want him, come and claim him", brandishes a sword; and all the while Frodo is silent (or groaning). In the book Frodo says: By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me! As I've said before, why change the master's wonderful work? Frodo is strong: how else could he get the Ring to Mount Doom? In the book he survives for days after being stabbed.

Nobody's saying Arwen role has as much action as, say, Aragorn's or Legolas'. It's just her role in the movies has much more action than in the books. In the books I think she would be a strong elf, it's just that Tolkien didn't involve her in the action. Look at her ancestory: Lúthien, Beren, Tuor, Turgon, Galadriel, Fingolfin. Not too bad.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I don't mind Arwen's role in the FOTR (I dislike it, however, in TTT). If she had been given a role that was close to Glorfindel's in the book, I would be very happy. But then she rides with Frodo to the Ford, says the crappy "if you want him, come and claim him", brandishes a sword; and all the while Frodo is silent (or groaning). In the book Frodo says: By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me! As I've said before, why change the master's wonderful work? Frodo is strong: how else could he get the Ring to Mount Doom? In the book he survives for days after being stabbed.

I don't mind her just taking Glorfindel's place, but as you said - the rest of the scene was trashed. I also don't mind the scene with Aragorn and Arwen on the bridge at Rivendell, but I DO mind the Narsil scene and Aragorns weakened charactered.

Nobody's saying Arwen role has as much action as, say, Aragorn's or Legolas'. It's just her role in the movies has much more action than in the books. In the books I think she would be a strong elf, it's just that Tolkien didn't involve her in the action. Look at her ancestory: Lúthien, Beren, Tuor, Turgon, Galadriel, Fingolfin. Not too bad.

I agree with you. On a side note, in my opinion - Galadriel was a strong character and she didn't draw a sword in Lord of the Rings. There is ways to show strong characters without relying on the sword or action to show this.

[Curufinwe]

The sum total of Arwen's "action" in the film is riding a horse and then drawing a sword. Her intention is not to use the weapon but rather to draw the wraiths into the river. You claim definitively that she was meant to "come off" as some saturday afternoon action character. It must be interesting to be able to crawl into the directors head. If you cannot accept the daughter of Elrond granddaughter of Earendil and heir of Beren and Luthien doing these very menial and hardly extraordinary things you are beyond purist - you are a literalist. The suggestion is that anything that was not explicitly spelled out in the literature is totally out of bounds.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I agree with you. On a side note, in my opinion - Galadriel was a strong character and she didn't draw a sword in Lord of the Rings. There is ways to show strong characters without relying on the sword or action to show this.

She might have when she threw down the walls of Dol Guldur. I agree; Jackson spoon feeds the audience yet again. Look what he did to Galadriel when Frodo offered her the Ring. He made her in to a scary, creepy witch.

Curufinwe: I said in my last post I thought that Arwen in the books was strong, especially given her ancestory. Compared to the books, movie-Arwen is involved in a lot of action scenes.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
She might have when she threw down the walls of Dol Guldur. I agree; Jackson spoon feeds the audience yet again. Look what he did to Galadriel when Frodo offered her the Ring. He made her in to a scary, creepy witch.

Don't you mean "Ice Queen"

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
The sum total of Arwen's "action" in the film is riding a horse and then drawing a sword. Her intention is not to use the weapon but rather to draw the wraiths into the river. You claim definitively that she was meant to "come off" as some saturday afternoon action character. It must be interesting to be able to crawl into the directors head.

Movie fans seem to have no problem going into the directors head though.

If you cannot accept the daughter of Elrond granddaughter of Earendil and heir of Beren and Luthien doing these very menial and hardly extraordinary things you are beyond purist - you are a literalist. The suggestion is that anything that was not explicitly spelled out in the literature is totally out of bounds.

I can accept that, I can NOT accept how she was at the ford. Sorry if you want to get defensive about it - but Arwen is the most hated character in the movie. You can call me literalist or purist (which is actually a BANNED word - so you can't call me that) all you want. You ignore our points all you want about Arwen - you will not change mine or others opinions of how Jackson butchered her character.