01-09-2007, 10:47 AM | #1 |
Hobbit
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Queer things you hear....
In Fellowship chapter 2 There is a line that says "there were rumors of beasts more terrible than this but they had no name"
To what is Tolkien referring? |
01-12-2007, 10:29 PM | #2 | |
Elf Lord
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01-13-2007, 01:27 PM | #3 | |
Ring-smith
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Probably (Is that how you spell that?) he ment what was said.
Terrable beasts with no names sounds like terrable beasts with no names to me. But then again, I had no problems understanding the plot and setting of the matrix.
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01-13-2007, 05:42 PM | #4 |
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Yeah, I mean, what do you want us to do, name them for you?
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01-15-2007, 02:38 AM | #5 |
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01-17-2007, 01:52 PM | #6 |
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Gwai and Rian, for shame!
I'm actually very interested in these little tidbits in LotR, and I do wonder about them (remember the talking Fox in FotR?), but I'm almost tempted to say that they are dead-end creations that he just liked and left in there. And I like them there, so don't anyone start accusing me of thinking Tolkien's editing bad, that wasn't my point.
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01-18-2007, 01:47 PM | #7 | |
Peer of the realm of Sanguine
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LOL, how about Bert & Ernie? Anyway, getting to the question... to put the true quote into context: "There were rumours of strange things happening in the world outside; and as Gandalf had not at that time appeared or sent any message for several years, Frodo gathered all the news he could...Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor... Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons. And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name. Whether the creatures did exist in fact or rumor is unclear. What is clear is that they had no name.
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01-21-2007, 03:22 AM | #8 | |
Hobbit
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Wild beasts often presented very scary elements in Tolkien's work. For instance, Fingon was stalked by starving beasts on his way to Thangorodrim in The Silmarillion. Ungoliant, a wild creature, pretty much got the best of Morgoth when she trapped him in her webs in the Lammoth. Her daughter Shelop was certainly scary enough, as were the spiders of Mirkwood. When Tolkien refrences dark, nameless creatures, I always think of three things: Gollum, Mirkwood's spiders, and that odd frog with the light. Primarily, though, I recall the spiders, lurking in dark crevices, because Tolkien was so deathly afraid of them.
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01-22-2007, 11:32 AM | #9 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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You're right, he was scared of them pretty bad. I bet he made Young Christopher clean the cobwebs pretty regularly...
I think I read somewhere that became afraid of them when he was in the war...
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01-23-2007, 04:22 PM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
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terrible creatures without names?
could they have been refering to the Nazgul???
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01-23-2007, 04:34 PM | #11 | |
Elven Warrior
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01-23-2007, 08:31 PM | #12 | |
Elven Warrior
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why not?
'Something' stirs in Mordor - rumours abound - evil stirs, trouble in the south - why cannot possibly, these rumours refer to the Nazgul? Quote:
when 2 + 2 is agreed to equal 4, as an agreed premise of logic - perhaps you can enlighten us how Sam's seemingly water-tight assumption, could be so skewed??? -i'd re-read the quote were i you, there! In no way is it shire-centric in it's validity or scope. Best, BB |
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01-24-2007, 01:04 AM | #13 | |
Elven Warrior
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Now let's go slowly here: Frodo in this section is gathering news, because he hasn't heard from Gandalf...i. e. this is before Gandalf's appearance in April 3018. The first appearance of the Nazgul is in battle at the taking of Osgiliath in June 3018, and the 9 didn't cross into the north until Sept. 18 3018, well after the murmured rumors. So unless the 9 were abroad MUCH sooner than Tolkien explicitly says they were, it is unlikely that Frodo in the Shire is hearing rumors of them months or even years before they make an appearance again in public. Further, if such rumors of the 9, nameless though they be, could reach Frodo they surely reached the Wise, and Aragorn and the other Rangers much less Gandalf and Elrond could hardly have been so lax in their preparations if they knew the 9 were abroad so much earlier than the book tells us (unless of course you buy into Olmert's theories). Respectfully, FB |
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01-25-2007, 12:19 AM | #14 |
Elf Lord
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This is a stone in my yard, Forkbeard.
According to Olmer's theory and an unevasive Tolkien's suggestion the news about Nazgul have reached Shire's vicitity much more earlier. Supposedly, somewhere in 3017. At the meeting with Strider in Bree Tolkien gives an impression that Aragorn is very well informed of the Riders nature and of the way they operate. "They will return.And more are coming. There are others. I know their number." They will come on you in the wild, in some dark place, where there is no help....They are terrible!" "They come from Mordor"... And then Tolkien hints that Aragorn has had a very unpleasant memory upon mentioning that Nazgul are so terrible, means that this really painful recollections could be fixed so firmly in a memory only by a personal experience. "The hobbits looked at him, and saw with surprise that his face was drawn as if with pain, and his hands clenched the arms of his chair...For a while he sat with unseeing eyes as if walking in distant memory..." We know that in 3017, while looking for Gollum, he ventured quite close to Mordor, maybe even has been in Mordor. The suggestion of such happening is quite obviously laid out in his words at the Council. "If man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul vale, then perils he will have. I, too, despaired at last..."So, if Aragorn knew that Nazgul are on the move, he could definitely share this news with his merry-men, and, without doubt, with elves of Mirkwood and his best pal Gandalf. So, Shire's rumors about "terrible beast" was not that groundless.
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01-25-2007, 01:26 AM | #15 | |
Elven Warrior
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As for his memories, as you point out he was walking in the immediate area of the Black Gate to Mordor, and if he encountered one of the 9 there, that hardly means that other people have elsewhere much less that those rumors reached the Shire from Aragorn's walking there looking for Gollum in 3017 until the beginning of the year in the shire in 3018. I do think its a stretch. |
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01-25-2007, 04:51 PM | #16 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I think you are forgetting the fact that a nazgul visited Erebor TRICE sometime in 3017-3018. He came as an official ambassador of Mordor, making no mistery of his identity. I guess all Erebor knew about the visit, if not of the ambassador's proposals, and rumours about the strange messenger spread far and wide.
Dwarves were passing through the Shire constantly, on their way to the Blue mountains and could have spread the news. And the story has grown in the telling, as it usually happens. Also 2 of the nazgul occupied Dol Guldur since 2951. I think the fact was known in Mirkwood, probably also in Laketown. One nazgul (Khamul's messenger) constantly circulated between Dol Guldur and Mordor - on horseback, as the nazgul got Fell Beasts later -at the end of 3018. It is likely that some people saw the messenger. It is correct that the nazgul came forth from Minas Morgul only in June 3018, but I think first rumours about them came to the Shire not from Mordor, but from Erebor and Mirkwood - along the Great Road. After all, Gandalf left Hobbitton and went South to Sarn ford to investigate because he HEARD some disquieting news in the Shire. Quote:
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01-25-2007, 05:48 PM | #17 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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01-26-2007, 05:42 PM | #18 | ||||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Now, let me post the whole quote instead of one line already posted, especially as it was not accurately quoted, by the way:
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The source of information is stated: mostly Dwarves, maybe some Elves. Dwarves were coming West by the Great Road from far away. To me it sounds like there might have been some from Erebor. Quote:
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Note also, that the messenger came a year before the Counsil of Elrond - in October 3017, but Dain decided to warn Elrond and Bilbo a whole year later - so he was not much concerned about Bilbo, much less about his heir in the Shire. He was primarily concerned about the fate of Erebor. Quote:
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The men of Dale probably didn't possess enough knowledge to identify the occupants of Dol Guldur as the Nazgul, at least not till 3017. But in 3017 King Brand in Dale also got messengers from Mordor: Quote:
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The news he heard at Sarn Ford was of the Mordor's assault on Osgiliath and of the Black Shadow there.. And later, Rhadagast told him that the Nazgul - (all Nine) were going to the Shire: "Nazgûl," he whispered. "The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward. They have taken the guise of riders in black." And what was Gandal'f reaction? 'I knew then what I had dreaded without knowing it. It seems to me, Gandalf was prepared for this news by some obscure rumours he heard in the Shire Quote:
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01-27-2007, 08:44 AM | #19 | ||
Elven Warrior
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... 'Now let's go slowly here:' - ah ever the charmer, FB! - never - Never in the history of the whole moot, has such an indefensible position ever been taken, so recklessly and with such daring audacity! Let us not got slowly here! As a lamb to the slaughter will you be, if, as king kanute, you stand foursqaure against the incoming tide with only a stick to draw in the sand against the mighty sea ... Were i you, i would re-read your opening position: Apart from the incontrovertible evidence and the sheer strength of arguments that can be forwarded that the 'rumours' could easily be attributable to the nine the whole point initially, was not did they refer directly to the nine: Quote:
It matters not one whit, if any in the north or fleeing from the South, know exactly what they are - but that what they are might actually be the nazgul - that was Sam's assertion / question. As for the rest, both Olmer and Gor have added enough to, at the very least, make open the very real possibility that RUMOUR might very easily be referring to the Nazgul either directly or indirectly (i.e. the terrible things without name, were actually nazgul, but that RUMOUR did not yet know that or was able to confirm their name, hence they were terrible and nameless in rumour - but what in fact rumour alluded to was the nazgul) There are about a billion other arguments, i just don't have time - nor the patience to go slowly Best, BB |
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01-28-2007, 04:04 AM | #20 | |||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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]QUOTE] And what was Gandal'f reaction? 'I knew then what I had dreaded without knowing it. It seems to me, Gandalf was prepared for this news by some obscure rumours he heard in the Shire [/QUOTE] I think you're reading into the story. Having a bad feeling and hearing news are not the same thing. Gandalf has been feeling that something dreadful has occurred, but he doesn't know what. Besides, if he was "prepared for it", why then does his heart sink so much, why is he so unprepared to hear it confirmed? Quote:
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