The captivity of Elros and Elrond

[Artanis]

Then such few of that people as did not perish in the assault joined themselves to Gil-galad, and went with him to Balar; and they told that Elros and Elrond were taken captive, but Elwing with the Silmaril upon her breast had cast herself into the sea.

This quote is from the Silmarillion, after the 3rd kinslaying. It says that Maglor took pity upon Elrond and Elros, which probably means that if he had not intervened they would have been slain. Still, I do not see why Maedhros and Maglor took Elwing's sons as captives. What was the point? Why not simply leave them in the care of the remnants of the people of Eärendil and Elwing? Since Elwing was believed by all the Elves to have perished in the sea, and the Silmaril was believed to be lost with her, the boys were not useful as a way to put pressure on her. Besides, despite of the oath I have serious trouble believing that Maedhros and Maglor would sink so deep as to trade with the life of two children.

What do you mooters think about this?

Whatever the reason was, the children provided Maglor with an opportunity to get something significant in his life to care about other than the terrible oath. Perhaps that was his very motive for taking them. He was married, but his wife probably remained in Valinor and we don't know whether he had children of his own.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that it was just a rash action taken. They saw Elros and Elrond and just took them and left.

[Attalus]

I think that he had an inkling that Elwing was still alive with the Silmaril, and took E&E as hostages. There's not much bad that I wouldn't believe about the sons of Fëanor.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I think that he had an inkling that Elwing was still alive with the Silmaril, and took E&E as hostages. There's not much bad that I wouldn't believe about the sons of Fëanor.

Oh come on. They were not THAT one-dimensional. Don't you remember that Maedhros searched for Dior's sons in Doriath?

[Beren3000]

Then such few of that people as did not perish in the assault joined themselves to Gil-galad, and went with him to Balar; and they told that Elros and Elrond were taken captive, but Elwing with the Silmaril upon her breast had cast herself into the sea.

If I understand this quote correctly, then it explains itself. The remnant who came to Gil-Gald told him that the Elrond and Elros were taken captive, probably to put pressure on Elwing. Now the next bit of news THEY brought is that Elwing cast herself into the Sea. It's as if they're saying that Maedhros and Maglor are blind because they DON'T KNOW of Elwing's apparent suicide yet. See my point?

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

If I understand this quote correctly, then it explains itself. The remnant who came to Gil-Gald told him that the Elrond and Elros were taken captive, probably to put pressure on Elwing. Now the next bit of news THEY brought is that Elwing cast herself into the Sea. It's as if they're saying that Maedhros and Maglor are blind because they DON'T KNOW of Elwing's apparent suicide yet. See my point?

Yes, I see your point, but I think Maedhros and Maglor knew, because I think they would have searched for her otherwise.

[Wayfarer]

The simplest take on it, I think, is that Maedhros and Maglor didn't intend to leave any of Elwing's people alive.

As it says - a few of them survived. But given the precedent we have (Doriath, for example) I'd say it's more than reasonable to expect that the Sons of Feanor would have simply wiped out the group holding the Silmaril. They took pity on Elrond and Elros and took them home, not because they expected to gain any advantage by doing so, but because they were unwilling to kill children, and leaving them there (which their nastier brothers had done in the past) would have been just as bad as killing them outright.

[Attalus]

I think that the phrase, "made captive" (Dictionary.com->"A prisoner taken by force or stratagem, esp., by an enemy, in war; one kept in bondage or in the power of another." Pretty much makes their situation clear. They weren't guests. Again, I'm not making any brief for the sons of Fëanor doing anything good or merciful as long as there's a Silmaril involved. Bloody gaudy things, anyway.

[Artanis]

I think you are all putting too much cruelty into the characters of Fëanor's sons. Wayfarer, they would have slain how many i would take to get hold of the Silmaril, but I don't believe they would chase people who fled from the battle or kill those who surrendered. So why not let Elrond and Elros go with them? I agree that they were unwilling to kill children, but there must have been more children than Elwing's sons there. Other sources than the Sil says that the people at Sirion multiplied.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe he thought that they could eventually lead them to Elwing. There's a chance that they would want to know what happened to there mother.

[Fat middle]

I agree with Beren that the quote probably means that the remnants of the people told Gil-Galad about the kidnapping of the boys and of the subsequent suicide of Elwing. That but in the quote is probably and ancient form to say "and what is worst" or something like that. At least that's the meaning it brings to my non-english-speaking mind

But I agree with Arty that you all are putting to much cruelty into M&M hearts. I see them kidnapping the boys to try and get a ransom payment (the Silmaril), but I cannot see them kidnapping them if they'd know the Silmaril had been lost.

M&M probably didn't hear that story about Elwing suicide or they didn't pay much credibility to it.

[Durin1]

My personal opinion is that although Elrond and Elros were held captive, this was probably to lessen the brothers' (M&M) guilt of having abandoned the sons of Dior during the ruin of Doriath. They probably abducted them to prevent their murder; which is why Maglor took pity on them and released them soon afterwards.

In Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien states that it was held a grievous and unnatural thing for elf-children to grow up without their parents, which is one of the reasons why elves rarely married during times of conflict or danger, whereby loss and seperation could occur. I think that the brothers recognised that the twins were victims in something they had no control over and they shouldn't have to suffer any more than they had to.

[Wayfarer]

Right, Durin. During the Rape of Doriath, they left Dior's sons in the woods, and the kids were never seen or heard from again. I think that's a major thing to keep in mind when discussing Elros and Elrond - you do not just leave children on the battlefield and assume that your conquered foe will 'take care of them'. Nor do you stop the fleeing enemy and say 'Hey, take these kids with you'. Your choices in that situation are either to kill the children (directly or by abandonment) or take them with you and figure out something later. Maedhros and Maglor chose to take pity on them.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Artanis

I think you are all putting too much cruelty into the characters of Fëanor's sons.

*shrugs* You pays your money and you takes your choice. I don't think of M&M as so much cruel as ruthless. Think of what they had just done.

[Wayfarer]

I agree that they weren't cruel - but they swore an oath before God and were willing to follow through on it, whether for good or for evil. That's something completely different.

[Durin1]

The two elder brothers were the two who were most burdened by the Oath. They reluctantly did what they did but also, on a few occasions, they prevented the other brothers from being absolutely ruthless.

[Sween]

I think the main points that led them to spare and eventually come to love Elros and Elrond were what happened to Dior's sons (the main reason i think) and also there close kinship to themselves and also i thinik they knew that they were the last of all the main lines of the houses of men and indeed of Thingol and Melain also there close kinship with the houses of the Noldor!

Even as little childen there is a chance that they would of been extroridnary and i think Maglor esspecially would of harkened to him because of the confusion of the time. He sang many songs to them if im wrong but i think much of Elronds wisdom probably came to him from him and thats probably why he loved him so

[Pytt]

long since i'v e read the Sil now.. better clear my memory before posting...
but, anyway, I think after read this thread, that they were saved not beacuse to yuse them as hostages to get the silmaril, but to save them and raise them like their own sons.

[Elemmírë]

It's too late at night for me to come up with a coherent argument...but I know I'll forget everything by the morning...

So, does anyone think that the recent deaths of Feanorion twins (depending on what version you follow ) might play any part in this or has any influence over Maedhros and Maglor's mindsets when they took Elrond and Elros?

[Earniel]

I always assumed Maglor took Elrond and Elros 'captive' simply to spare them a worse faith. He had regretted what had happened to Elwing's little brothers, I can understand he wouldn't be able to do something like that to her sons as well.

About the question why he didn't let them escape with the rest of their people, I assume both were still relatively young at the time. And there may not have been any one left of Eärendil's people in the vicinity to entrust the two children too after the fighting had calmed down. After all, I can imagine whoever could escape from the third kinslaying did so very fast.

And I suppose that after learning that Elwing had cast herself off a cliff, Elrond and Elros were virtually orphans. They might have been raised as easily by the remnant of Eärendil's people as by Maglor himself. I also gather Maglor wanted something constructive to do after all that tragic killing of kin. Perhaps he saw it as a way to redeem himself somewhat of the sorrow he had caused to the children's family.