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07-31-2003, 08:19 PM | #1 | ||||||
The Tall
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The Silmarillion Ch 10: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
From The Published Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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07-31-2003, 08:22 PM | #2 | ||||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
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Part II
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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07-31-2003, 08:25 PM | #3 | |||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Part III
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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07-31-2003, 08:30 PM | #4 |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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References
References:
Tale of the Sun and the Moon from Bolt 1, The Sketch of Mythology, The Ambarankanta and the Quenta Noldorinwa from The Shaping of Middle-Earth. The Quenta Silmarillion of The Lost Road and Other Writtings. The Essay Myths Transformed in and the Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor in Morgoth’s Ring. Later I will post the differences between several of these versions and post why the Ambarankanta is necessary in understanding the Tale. Finally, the most important question is: Why the Man in the Moon came down too soon?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
08-01-2003, 04:34 AM | #5 |
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Good, good work Maedhros! Lot to comment, but fist I must digest it and read the chapter.
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08-01-2003, 05:20 AM | #6 | ||
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Re: Part III
Wow, great job Maedhros!
I don't wanna talk about sun and moon, because I like more the version of LT1. Quote:
Maybe they now understood the words of Mandos in Cap.3: Quote:
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Finarwë *********************** A! Elbereth Gilthoniel! silivren penna m?*riel o menel aglar elenath, Gilthoniel, A! Elbereth! Last edited by Finarwe : 08-01-2003 at 05:21 AM. |
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08-01-2003, 09:25 AM | #7 |
AngAdan
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I much better like the creation version JRRT was working on when he died, as explained in Myths tranform. A more complete and regualr univrverse, solar system, and earth is created before the Children arrive. The Sun and Moon already exist, During the early war with Melkor before the Children, the Valar cover Aman with a protective dome with Psedo Star in it, and the two tress are created to light aman under the dome, using the light of the sun and moon, rather than the other way around.
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08-02-2003, 05:11 AM | #8 | ||
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Re: The Silmarillion Ch 10: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
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I think that that line might be in the background of Tolkien's mind (conscious or unconsciously) when he conceived his myth.
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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08-02-2003, 05:33 AM | #9 | |||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Re: The Silmarillion Ch 10: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
Impressive work, Maedhros.
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Maedhros, this coordination of the events and your comments about how good always seem to come out of from evil, made me think of this passage from The later annals of Valinor, HoME 5: Quote:
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08-02-2003, 12:01 PM | #10 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Fanastic intro Maedhros. thanks for taking it on.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
08-06-2003, 01:26 PM | #11 | |
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Re: Part II
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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08-11-2003, 02:00 AM | #12 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thanks, Maedhros! You have some books that I don't, and I like to see the quotes from them.
I always had a slightly different thought on this passage: Quote:
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And I noticed that bit about having to breathe the outside air, too - interesting!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-11-2003, 02:06 AM | #13 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: Re: The Silmarillion Ch 10: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
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"See, from His head, His hands, His feet, Sorrow and love flow mingled down: Did e'er such love and sorrow meet, Or thorns compose so rich a crown?" The same idea - from great sorrow, comes greater love. I think that theme is in Tolkien's work in many areas.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-11-2003 at 02:08 AM. |
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08-11-2003, 02:13 AM | #14 | ||
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And as Artanis said: Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-12-2003, 03:26 AM | #15 | ||
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08-19-2003, 06:12 AM | #16 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Well done Maedhros!
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That Arien is mightier than Tilion might be explained by the fact that the sunlight is more powerful than the moonlight. At the moon we might look, but the sun is too bright for us to gaze on long. This is reflected, I suppose, in the fact that even the Eldar could not look into Arien's eyes. And when she shedded the form in which she walked in Valinor so that she steered the Sun as a flame, 'in fullness of her splendour', she must have been bright indeed. I wonder if she'd needed sunglasses to look at herself in the mirror. While reading this quote... Quote:
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08-19-2003, 02:32 PM | #17 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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and on Eärniel's post - I never thought of that, that the light in the Sun and the Moon was affected by the spider poison - those trees must have been awesome, if the Sun and the Moon are a diminished form of the Trees' light! And about the rest of your thought, yes, that always seems to be the way of Illuvatar - to make an even better good from any evil that happens.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-19-2003, 02:51 PM | #18 | |
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But I'd shift its key: you are speaking ex post, and I see it more from an ex ante point of view. When Illuvatar created the ainur, he created all them different in a perfect harmony. Their differences would result in conflicts, first in the Music and then in Arda, but all those conflicts would finally be resolved according to Illuvatar's prime idea (whatever he had in mind when he called them to sing), because they are "harmonic conflicts". Okay, this sounds very obscure, but I don't know how to put it clearer. What I wanted to say is that Eru hardly acts directly after the begining of Arda (though he does it sometimes) but I don't think this is the case).
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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10-24-2018, 05:41 AM | #19 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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In my last re-read I came across the passage on Arien, how she was a spirit of fire that Melkor could not corrupt to his side. And now thinking upon that and remembering the long and old discussions here on Balrogs, who were also spirit of fire but who did get corrupted, I've come across a question I can't believe no one ever asked before: Did Arien have wings?!
Heh. |
10-24-2018, 07:47 AM | #20 |
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Ah... was she a "good balrog"?
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