05-08-2005, 02:13 AM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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The Emperor's Origins
This is not a spoiler thread. Spoilers to what the Emperor's origins are should be kept private.
Anyway, on my most recent viewing of Episode II of Star Wars, I developed a theory to the Emperor's origins that I believe will be accurate. Any theories others may have would be welcome. My theory is that the Emperor was originally Cyphodias. Jedi Master Cyphodias supposedly died over a decade before "Attack of the Clones". He is referred to in the movie as having been a leading member of the Jedi Council. Someone claiming to be Cyphodias ordered the creation of the clone army, for the Jedi Council. Nothing more is said about Cyphodias in the movie. Originally I thought that Cyphodias was another name for Dooku. However, this theory is rather dented now. Everyone already is well acquainted with Dooku's background. He was Yoda's apprentice, was once a Jedi, and it seems unlikely that Yoda would or could have completed the entirety of his training after Cyphodias' disappearance. It's possible, but rather unlikely, to me. If the Emperor was Cyphodias, that would give an origin for the Emperor and an explanation for his Force powers. It's clear that they'll be revealing more about this mystery of Cyphodias in Episode III, simply because they left his involvement as such a question mark in Episode II. So that's my theory. There's not a lot of evidence to support it, but I really suspect it's accurate. My brother asked me how Yoda could have missed recognizing him. Perhaps he's a changeling. There doubtless are other possible answers, though. This has been a question I've been seriously thinking about now and then. The Emperor's origins have been a prevailing mystery in the films. If anyone has extra information from books that tell the answer, please cloak it from our vision with the shadow of the Dark Side (spoiler signs ). I look forward to any comments or other theories!
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05-10-2005, 09:29 PM | #2 | ||
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1.Sifodias is probubly Palpatene. 2.He's not Duku! You probubly aren't on: 1.Sifodias being a Jedi when the clone were ordered. Just my opinoin
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05-11-2005, 12:12 AM | #3 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-11-2005, 01:23 AM | #4 | |
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I don't think so. I think in ep. 2, when it's mentioned that Sipholias ordered the army after being thought dead, Obi Wan was kind of thinking "then who was posing as Sipholias and what would they want with an army?" At that point I thought, "Palpatine."
Remember in ep. 1 when those Chinese-sounding aquatic-looking dudes asked the emperor "my lord, is that... legal?" He answered suggestively "I will make it legal." Now I obviously forget who those guys were, and what they were asking about exactly, but the Emperor sure does hint that he can influence the Trade Federation, of which Palpatine is about to become chancellor, to change intergalactic law for his purposes. And about what he hoped to do with an army:
And if that's the case, it would make Palpatine the most ambitious and dynamic bad guy ever created. I soooo hope he kills Jar-Jar. EDIT: Somehow I never even wondered about the origin of his force powers. Maybe you were right and Sipholias feigned his death and ordered and army, and then made up the identity of Palpatine.
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05-11-2005, 03:03 AM | #5 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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The most reasonable answer to who Sifo is is not official but most agree to this theory; Darth Maul was killed by Obi-wan after killing Qui-gon, Darth Sidious needed a new apprentice and saw great potential in Jedi Knight Dooku. Dooku was having political idealist differences with the Jedi and so luring him to the dark side was not hard. Sidious' last test was for Dooku to kill his very close friend Sifo-dyas. We dont know if the order was to point blank kill Sifo or a plot for Dooku to rally Sifo to their cause. Anywho, after Sifo was killed Dooku went to Kamino and used his former friends name to contract the clones. After that he removed the archive info on Kamino, left the Jedi order and joined with the Sepreatist forces. While seemingly in league with the sepratists Darth Tyranus(Dooku) contracted Jango Fett to be the prototype for the clones. Some would ask why would Dooku use the name Sifo-dyas, or how do you know Sifo wasnt the one who truely contracted the Clones. The answer is quite simple; Palpatine/Sidious was very very cunning! Sidious made Dooku use the name of a Jedi that could not be queastioned on the actions taken, Sifo was killed just before the contract was made so no one would be able to ask him if he did! Dooku's name was not used because they could track the contract down to Dooku and the Sepratists, which would lead to Sidious. By using the name Sifo-dyas after he had been killed Sidious ensured that the Jedi would not be able to denounce the Clone army... because "they" were the ones who contracted them! It is unclear where Sidious comes from but we know where he didnt come from... he was not Sifo, and Dooku was not Sifo.... at least not really. The only thing we know is that Palpatine came from Naboo... if that where he origionated we do not know. I personaly doubt that Palpatine is an actual Naboosian.
Edit: Just answering a few loose arguments i read through some of the other posts... Sidious could not be a Changelim. Anakin could detect a changelim and yoda has a much stronger bond with the force. Yoda is seen sitting no more than a few feet from Sidious and senses nothing!!! Sidious is not a changelim!
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(I am typing this response in a not so clear state so if you'd like clearification or any kind of in deapth answer i can and would be glad to answer.)
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05-13-2005, 01:37 AM | #6 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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Perhaps you are right, Halbarad. I will very happily argue with you, though .
By the way, what was the source for the spoilers you wrote? Quote:
Anyway, there's no indication in the movie as to when Syphodias died. They only said that he was already supposed to be dead at the time the Clone order was placed. Quote:
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It seems a bit implausible. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-14-2005, 01:51 PM | #7 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I think I'll stay in the 'Syfo-dias is not Palpatine' camp. The info in AoTC does seem to point to only Syfo-dias' (so many different ways to write it, and I don't know which one is the right one!) name being used to place an order with the cloners. I don't think a jedi-master would fake his own death and then return as Palpatine and get away with it so easily. But I take it it was indeed Palpatine that, under the name of Syfo-dias ordered the clone army. I don' think it could be Dooku because he hired Jango under the name Lord Tyrannus, and it would have been needless for yet another name if he already pretended to be Syfo-dias. But I suppose the RoTS can shed more light into this.
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I also don't think Palpatine is a changeling. I'll admit I'm partially going on later novel-knowledge that Palpatine had a preference for humans in his fleet. So I would deem it unlikely for himself to have been anything else than human too. Another possible piece of proof could be that, supposing Palpatine was a changeling, he wouldn't have had to go through the cape-and-hood-routine when playing Darth Sidious, he could just have changed his face.
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05-14-2005, 07:19 PM | #8 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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Quoted from Lief Erikson ~
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Edit: Oh and yes nearly 10 years had passed between Episode I and Episode II, in EPI Anakin was a 9 year old boy, in EPII he was a 19 year old Jedi Padawan. Amidala is 14 year old Queen and in EPII she is a 24 year old Senator. Episode II and III are seperated by three years, the Clone Wars years, and Episode III to Episode IV is set almost twenty years apart. This makes Anakin around 43 at the end of Jedi.
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen Last edited by Halbarad of the Dunedain : 05-14-2005 at 07:27 PM. |
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05-14-2005, 07:32 PM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
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Accidental double post, ignore or delete...!
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen Last edited by Halbarad of the Dunedain : 05-14-2005 at 07:34 PM. |
05-15-2005, 11:59 AM | #10 | |
Long lost mooter
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I think I remember that Owen Lars was the son of Shmi's new husband by a previous wife; thus Anakin and Owen are stepbrothers, not half brothers (if I'm remembering the scene in TPM correctly). |
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05-15-2005, 02:23 PM | #11 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Anyway, I'll be seeing the movie in a very few days . It's terribly exciting. Whichever of us is right, I'm positive it'll be a blast for both of us . And we'll celebrate in the "Revenge" thread, toasting to George Lucas and all the brilliant actors. I'm very much looking forward to this coming experience. Quote:
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As I said before, what you propose here makes sense to me. I don't really think he is a changeling, but I mentioned it as a possibility. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-15-2005, 03:09 PM | #12 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Quoted from Lief Erikson, again...
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Quoted from azalea... Quote:
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen Last edited by Halbarad of the Dunedain : 05-15-2005 at 03:16 PM. |
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05-15-2005, 06:32 PM | #13 | |
Elf Lord
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So Obi-Wan and Yoda took it for granted that he was killed earlier then almost ten years ago. Meanwhile, (as you have pointed out) Obi-Wan said to Lama Su that almost ten years ago Syphodias did die. So to me, much as I hate to say it, it looks like there's a contradiction in the film itself.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-15-2005, 10:05 PM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
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I had already anticipated your response, I knew your next post would be in reference to Obi-Wan's conversation with Yoda! Haha. If you read the subtitles more clearly it says that the contract was made nearly ten years ago, and, i was under the impression he was killed before that. If the order was made nearly ten years ago it could be, as i have stated before, the contract was made 9 years and 11 months before AOTC, and Sifo-Dyas could have been killed around 9 years and 11 anda half months before AOTC. All of this simply meaning that when Obi-wan made his statemtn to Yoda he was making it in reference to the contract of the clones that he said was nearly ten years go. if he had said 10 years ago and nothing more than perhaps Sifo could have been killed more than 10 years before.
Regardless, if it is less than 10 years or a little over ten years before AOTC that still doesn't allow time for Sifo to die and Palpatine to be "born". Sifo Dyas was a Jedi, Palpatine was never a Jedi. Sidious had a living form in the senate durring the same time Sifo-Dyas hada living form in the Jedi Order. To say that Sidious is Sifo would be to say that Yoda could go to the senate building, talk to senator Palpatine of Naboo and then go right to the Jedi Temple and talk with Jedi Knight Sifo-Dyas and not have a single bit of a clue who it was!? Thats absurd! The only other real possibilty is for Palpatine to go to Kamino and make the contract and use a fake name while Dooku erased the archive info. Yet that is the same as the theory i already had only Sidious exchanges places for one act with Dooku. I'm sorry but Sidious can Not be Sifo-Dyas, not even in a Sci-Fi fantasy flick like Star Wars.
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
05-16-2005, 01:14 AM | #15 | |
Elf Lord
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This is fun. I had already thought of that response, also. Here is my answer to that one.
It is possible that Syphodias died nearly ten years ago, and that he was supposed to have put in the order after that. However, what Obi-Wan said to Yoda as his time reference to Syphodias' death was exactly what he said to the Prime Minister. He said to the Prime Minister that Syphodias died nearly ten years ago. He said to Yoda, "Syphodias died nearly ten years ago. I was under the impression that he died before that." Now perhaps these events took place close together. Perhaps Syphodias died before he was supposed to have submitted the order. However, Obi-Wan still said to Yoda that the order was placed nearly ten years ago, and that Syphodias was supposed to have died before that. Syphodias, according to what Obi-Wan said to the Prime Minister, was not supposed to have died earlier then "nearly ten years ago". You see, you're measuring this in months. If Obi-Wan had been measuring in months, it's possible that he could have avoided an inconsistency. For example, suppose Syphodias died in November and was supposed to have submitted the order in December (and of course Obi-Wan is in September almost ten years later). That would make both of Obi-Wan's statements make sense- on first glance only, though. He said to the Prime Minister, "he died nearly ten years ago." So far so good. Syphodias died in November. That is nearly ten years ago. Just two months short. Obi-Wan then said to Yoda (essentially), "They say Syphodias submitted the order on the Senate's instructions nearly ten years ago. I was under the impression he died before that." This statement does not make sense, when looked at closely. Obi-Wan's use of the word "before" could refer to December, but if so he's being very unclear. Yoda should have said, "but die nearly ten years ago Syphodias did," because November is also nearly ten years ago. December is, but so is November. So if you are correct, you must assume that Obi-Wan was being very unclear when he was talking to Yoda. Obi-Wan said that Syphodias died nearly ten years ago, but then he said to Yoda that Syphodias didn't die nearly ten years ago, but earlier. He wasn't talking months when he was speaking to Yoda. He was speaking to him in exactly the same way he'd been speaking to the Prime Minister, using exactly the same term "almost ten years." I hope this argument isn't written in too unclear a manner. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-16-2005 at 01:19 AM. |
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05-16-2005, 01:30 AM | #16 |
Elf Lord
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By the way, Halbarad, I would appreciate it if you didn't speak to me in what I view as a condescending manner. "If you had watched 'Attack of the Clones' more closely," "If you had read the subtitles more carefully," (though that wasn't an argument at all, by the way. Those subtitles in no way contradicted what I was saying). These kinds of statements take all enjoyment out of the discussion, for me. The argument on a purely technical level is enjoyable. When it gets nasty, like when you feel angry enough to use the word "damn," or to condescend to me, this thread loses all pleasure as far as I'm concerned, and debating with you seems worthless. I promise you that I have never intended to offend you in any of my posts, but probably unintentionally, you have somewhat offended me.
My reason for asking for the sources for your spoilers was quite simple. I heard "spoilers" about "Attack of the Clones" before it came out, and none of them turned out to be accurate. So I have become less trusting . For sheer intellectual sport, this discussion has been fun. I'll be interested to see how this thread changes when we've watched the movies and can compare opinions on what George Lucas did do with the Emperor's origins (a subject that has fascinated me for several years). It's obvious to me that you're a dedicated Star Wars fan, Halbarad. As such I respect you (I'm a Star Wars geek meself ). Anyway, just stay cool. Regards, Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
05-16-2005, 04:45 AM | #17 |
Elven Warrior
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The problem with threads is you can not hear the tone and intent. I was not being condescending in my posts, though if taken in that light they very well can be. I was making my statements in a litteral sense.... l had to look closer to see what i see so i am no different than you. however i do not appreciate words being put into my mouth Lief... i never made the statement "If you had watched 'Attack of the Clones' more closely" one single word changes the whole context.... i said "if you watch..." not if you had. Anywho.... i am not intentionally being condescending... it is how i speak and how i am spoken to. i am not questioning your intelligence i am arguing a point that has many points that may be ooverlooked by you and/or me.... or anyone.... so there ya go...
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05-16-2005, 12:37 PM | #18 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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05-16-2005, 09:36 PM | #19 | |
Elf Lord
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Was my most recent argument regarding Obi-Wan's lack of reference to months clearly enough written? ~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-17-2005, 01:03 AM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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By the way, happy birthday .
My sister's got a birthday about now too. Watching "Revenge of the Sith" just at that time is going to be a marvelous present for her.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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