06-13-2002, 08:55 PM | #1 | ||
Elf Lord
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Gwaihir the immortal
Every once in a while there's a discussion about Gwaihir the Windlord from the Lord of the Rings. I remember people on the Hobbit forum debating whether Gwaihir is the same as the Lord of the Eagles from The Hobbit. What I've never read, though I'm certain it has occured, is discussion of Gwaihir from The Silmarillion.
I believe Gwaihir is in some way a Maia, or at least has Maian blood. And if he is not immortal or indefinitely longeval, he is at least very long lived. My evidence lies in The Lost Road And Other Writings (History of Middle-earth Vol. V) and Morgoth's Ring (HoMe X). In that part of the Lost Road covering the Quenta Silmarillion chapters 12-15, Christopher Tolkien is talking about the editorial alterations made to his father's writings in order to produce the text published in The Silmarillion. Concerning the line in Of Beren and Lúthien where those two are rescued by Thorondor and two other Eagles from the steps of Angband, Christopher has these interesting remarks: Quote:
Why do I say he's a Maia (or anyway Maian)? Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, an excerpt from an essay about Orcs: Quote:
And if Gwaihir is a Maia that lived through all the first Three Ages of the Sun, then he was undoubtedly the same lord of the eagles seen in The Hobbit. If Gwaihir was not a Maia, I must believe he had Maian blood through Thorondor, as Elwing or Elrond had it from Melian (through Lúthien grandmother of Elwing).
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 06-13-2002 at 09:00 PM. |
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06-15-2002, 04:55 AM | #2 |
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The eagle's longevity could be something to do with them being beloved of Manwe.
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06-15-2002, 10:50 AM | #3 |
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You are mixing mythologies, and therefore invalidating your theory and argument.
Just because Tolkien reused a name from an older set of stories doesn't mean there is any continuity from the older set of stories to the newer set of stories. That has to be the most common flaw made in Tolkien analysis. |
06-15-2002, 02:08 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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I totally agree, but I don't think that's what I've done here. It's not as though Tolkien reused the name "Gwaehir" in the Lord of the Rings from the Book of Lost Tales mythology. In the old mythology, the Eagle who accompanied Thorondor was called Gwaewar and Christopher Tolkien makes it clear that J. R. R. changed this name to Gwaihir after the completion of the Lord of the Rings to bring that passage in the Beren and Lúthien story into accord with it (Rings). The Eagle was named Gwaehir after the Lord of the Rings was finished. So I don't think I'm really mixing mythologies.
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06-15-2002, 02:44 PM | #5 |
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As I mentioned to Nolendil over AIM, assuming his idea is true Gwaihir wouldn't be a Maia, but the son of the Maia Thorondir. I would assume the Maiar are only those created by Iluvatar and not their children as well, even if both their parents are Maiar.
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06-15-2002, 03:58 PM | #6 | ||||
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Quote:
Quote:
1951 was a very crucial year for Tolkien. But what happened to Text C had nothing to do with bringing it into the Lord of the Rings mythology. Christopher lays out a brief summary of the textual history on pages 294-5: Quote:
In the opening comments on "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", Christopher writes: Quote:
See followup message for conclusion. |
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06-15-2002, 04:00 PM | #7 |
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And the conclusion is:
It is therefore inappropriate to use material from The Lost Road and Other Writings as the basis for an analysis of the world of The Lord of the Rings. That material was never incorporated into the later mythology. It was used as a springboard for creating the fuller version of the much-revised Silmarillion mythology, which version was incorporated into the world of The Lord of the Rings (through the story itself and the appendices, which Tolkien created in 1950 and revised in 1953-5). |
06-15-2002, 04:07 PM | #8 |
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Christopher may have suppressed the passage from the published Silmarillion, but he does not show that the passage itself was carried forward to the later texts. (In fact, a variant of the passage is found in "The Grey Annals", but there Gwaihir is simply named "Gwaihir" -- he is given no title). Had Christopher included "Gwaihir the Windlord" in the published Silmarillion, he would have been wrong to do so, since "The Grey Annals" succeeded QS Text C.
Tolkien often reused names from the earlier stories. If we were to accept your argument about the two Gwaihirs being the same creature, then we would have to assume that Legolas Greenleaf from "The Fall of Gondolin" was the same Legolas who joined the Fellowship of the Ring. That two Elves are named Rumil does not mean they were the same character. That two Eagles are named Gwaihir does not mean they were the same, either.
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06-16-2002, 08:57 PM | #9 |
Elf Lord
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Well, thank you very much for the correction and information. I understand better now.
Do you think it's even possible that the two Gwaihirs were the same? And what about Lhandroval/Landroval? Is his name used in that Grey Annals variant?
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 06-16-2002 at 08:58 PM. |
06-16-2002, 10:54 PM | #10 |
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I can only go back to the quilt analogy (or was that in another forum?). Tolkien was transplanting ideas and elements from mythology to mythology. The only way to be sure that Gwaihir from The Lord of the Rings would have been ancient enough to live in the First Age is to find a relevant text which places him there. Otherwise, you are faced with two Gwaihirs in two separate mythologies.
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