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06-23-2004, 05:44 PM | #1 |
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"Falling" - and Repentance and Redemption in LOTR
This has been on my mind for a bit. I can think of four characters in LOTR who have a moral "fall" and yet have a chance of some sort of redemption, if they would repent:
One sad thing to me was that of these four who evidently had the option to repent, only one did so - and that one lost his life almost immediately after. Curious to me - especially with Tolkien being a Christian, and repentance & redemption being the major theme of Christianity. Each fell by desiring something for himSELF... something which was not otherwise their due, by birth, station, abililty or by all that was right. Of course there are other creatures for whom repentance does not seem to be an option: Sauron, the Nazgul, the Balrog, Orcs - maybe even The Mouth of Sauron. What do you folks think about this? Why did these four each have their chances to reverse themselves? Why did they, for the most part, reject that opportunity?
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06-23-2004, 06:46 PM | #2 |
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A very interesting topic indeed, Val!
You are asking some hard questions, and I haven't got time to think about them right now. But I hope there'll be a really good discussion about this!
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06-23-2004, 08:37 PM | #3 | |
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Re: "Falling" - and Repentance and Redemption in LOTR
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06-24-2004, 12:59 AM | #4 | ||||
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Very interesting points and questions!
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So what happens after The Balrog and Sauron are judged? Indefinite suffering for them? Or are they completely annhiliated? Or do they get a chance to repent? Or do they ever learn from their mistakes, beyond the end of Arda and Eä? Nobody knows. And that brings me to Orcs and Nazgul, and also the Mouth of Sauron whom you tentatively mention. The Orcs and Nazgul were once Men (or you could say the former were Elves, if that's what you believe), or atleast were humanoid people. Would you venture to say that such things are beyond redemption, because they were made so by Melkor and Sauron? Tolkien was not so sure, he asked himself in Morgoth's Ring, in his essay on Orcs, whether Orcs were redeemable. He left the question hanging. Personally, I would like to think so. I would like to think that in some realm of existence the din-horde was healed of what Sauron (or Melkor) had done to them. And the Mouth of Sauron, the Black Númenorean? He was said to be more evil than any Orc, which is a very powerful thing to say. So if you are going to put Orcs on the unredeemable list, you must also put the Mouth of Sauron there. Quote:
You do not mention Otho Sackville-Baggins, (or was it Lotho), who in his quest for power ended up handing over the authority of the Shire (which did not belong to him) to Saruman. He also died, and may (if Saruman was speaking literally) have been eaten by GrÃ*ma. He became frightened near his end, and I think it was implied he saw the error of his ways. This, if a Fall, is a lesser one, but it bears mentioning. Also there is Denethor, a more widely accepted example of a fallen Man. He also was offered redemption. "There is much that you could do" Gandalf tells him. And for a moment he subsides, but then he stands tall and fell, says his last words and leaps upon the pyre to burn. Quote:
A quote from the Upanishads comes to mind, I think it tells us something of ourselves, and about Saruman: Quote:
That is all I can offer on the subject. Good topic!
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 06-24-2004 at 01:13 AM. |
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06-24-2004, 05:21 AM | #5 | |||
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Re: "Falling" - and Repentance and Redemption in LOTR
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Another aspect is the condemnation and judgement received from people around. If the environment expects you to behave badly, then surely living up to their expectations is far easier than breaking out? Quote:
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06-24-2004, 10:58 AM | #6 |
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Nolendil - thanks for the nice post.
Yes, you're right about Denethor - I should have mentioned him as well. You could also be right about the various forces of evil... I guess it's just harder to OFFER repentance on a battlefield. Characters such as Gandalf, Aragorn and Frodo had opportunities to interact (other than in combat) with the figures named: Boromir, Gollum, Saruman, Wormtongue and Denethor. Perhaps the same opportunities just were not there for the various opponents on the field. No need to agonize too much over the fate of their souls though - as they are all fictitious. I guess one thing that stands out to me... we don't have a character who repents - and then goes on living.
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06-24-2004, 03:58 PM | #7 |
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Good thread, Val!
Re the orcs/unredeemable beings - I think when Tolkien wrote the story, his goal was, as he said to C. S. Lewis, to write a story like "we like to read". IOW, a ripping good tale, with depth and heart, etc. And so he didn't fully plan out his entire world philosophy first, he just started writing; or as he often said, he just started chronicling what had happened. You can see in the writings in Morgoth's Ring and other places that later on, he started thinking about reworking some concepts that troubled him, like the irredeemable-ness of orcs, but just never got around to it - it was just not feasible. Altho it's fun to see how often we talk about these characters like they're real people, it IS just a story (altho I think the second best story in the world; the first being the Bible, which is as Lewis and Tolkien said the only entirely true myth); and every story needs bad guys! And you can't fully flesh out EVERY character, so I think he just chose to leave orcs rather simple. There's an interesting bit in Letters where he talks about good and evil, and says how they are NOT opposites, as some worldviews believe; but rather evil is corrupted good, and absolute evil is therefore nonexistent, because even existence itself is good. Also it's obvious that a really evil person has some very good qualities - the ability to think and reason well, for example - which enables him to be really evil. People NOT blessed with good minds can't be as evil (or good) as those who are. Or rather, they can't have as big of an evil effect on their surroundings; I think that's a more accurate way to put it.
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06-24-2004, 04:00 PM | #8 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-24-2004, 04:08 PM | #9 | |
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Still - she didn't have such a 'fall' as those others... at least it seems so to the reader. Maybe I'm making too much of all this. Like you said, Tolkien primarily wanted to tell a good story - which he did! Maybe it's too much for his millions of fans to insist on all the answers to all the questions we could ask about this world of Middle-earth he created. But... I guess that's what we're all here for, isn't it?
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06-24-2004, 04:21 PM | #10 | |||
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Re: Re: "Falling" - and Repentance and Redemption in LOTR
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A good picture of this is the channel that a waterflow makes. It just gets deeper and deeper the more often the water flows that way, and eventually gets "set in stone". Like the Colorado River did to the Grand Canyon ... I like how Lewis describes this in "The Great Divorce" - a phenominal little book that deals with, among other things, the idea that a person CHOOSES to stay in Hell, even tho they may choose heaven. And how there eventually comes a point where they are unable to choose any other way, because of their previous numerous free-will choices. The story is about how the inhabitants of Hell can take a bus-ride to the outer edge of heaven. Heavenly citizens meet them there and try their best to persuade them to stay, but as Lewis writes, Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-24-2004 at 04:26 PM. |
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06-25-2004, 08:14 AM | #11 |
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v. good topic, Val
i don't have time to discuss now, as i am still catching up on 2 months of posting |
06-25-2004, 09:43 AM | #12 |
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This is a fascinating thread and I'm trying to formulate some comments, but I'm having a hard time with it. This is a great discussion so far and I think the comments have been some of the best and most well-considered of any thread I've seen here. I'm looking forward to seeing more and will hopefully be able to collect my own thoughts so I can offer my ideas as well.
Great going Val and all the contributors so far. (I've got my thinking cap on, Val!!! )
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06-25-2004, 11:57 AM | #13 |
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Way to inject life into the JRRT forums, Val! I would love to join in, and fully intend to, once I have enough time to give it the consideration it deserves.
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06-26-2004, 08:16 AM | #14 |
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I'm glad some of you like this! Look forward to seeing your posts on it.
If it makes it easier to respond, maybe hit one or two points at a time...
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06-26-2004, 12:18 PM | #15 | |
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Also, Eomer fell, and he got back up and lived. He spoke ill of Galadriel, and when Gimli called him out, he said he was sorry, in so many words. Give the guy some credit! *searching* I know there was a point here somewhere *continues searching* Okay....hold on................................................ .. Oh yeah, I think a lot of the reason behind those who did not repent, ie Grima and Saruman, was due to pride. I think that in the Two Towers it someone actually mentions it, but I could be wrong (I am re-reading it again, but I am only on the Road to Isengard, not yet to the Voice). I would respond more, but I have little time. I must go now.
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06-26-2004, 04:12 PM | #16 | |
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06-26-2004, 05:50 PM | #17 |
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RÃ*an, what is so simple about Orcs? Their origins are complicated, and their personalities, though generally wicked, vary. Orcs fight among themselves, develop their own monarchies when left alone, serve different rulers who vie for power, possess some twisted form of Goblin-morality (seeking revenge, for instance, for a fallen captain [Great Goblin, Balrog]), descriminate against eachother based on tribe and breed, develop various languages, believe their enemies to be more evil than they themselves are, build weapons like liquid fire bombs and poisoned blackened blades, etc.. Orcs to me possess their own sort of sophistication, their own societies and social orders that have only been surface-scratched by Tolkien.
And what is so simple about the question of Orc-redemption? Tolkien himself couldn't figure it out. Or the origins of Orcs--are they demonic, or are some demonic, are they twisted Elves, or twisted Men, are they beasts, or puppets, or independent entities, and why did Eru create their souls, knowing they would inhabit the minds and bodies of the Dark Lord's abominations? Tolkien puzzled over these matters in essay after essay, and some of these questions, for sure the last one, were not resolved. Orcs to me are a complex idea that gives rise to problems of philosophy. Were Orcs common in our society today, we would discuss them in Ethics classes, and ask ourselves these questions; are those people really people? Or are they subhuman? Are they redeemable? Do they have souls? Why would God permit them to be? And so on. There would be some for whom Orcs are a simple matter: monsters that need to be exterminated, but those are the people who do not ask the important questions. Those are the people who do not inquire. Of course Orcs would also be extremely terrifying in our reality as well, and faced with one I would be hard pressed to feel sympathy or compassion for it. Now some of you may say I am taking this far too seriously, but I would only answer that I am merely inquiring into the nature of creatures I believe in on a secondary level. You might say "suspension of disbelief", Tolkien called it Secondary Belief. Orcs have value to me for their own sake, and for the sake of the reality to which they belong. For me, it is no simple matter.
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 06-26-2004 at 05:52 PM. |
06-27-2004, 11:23 AM | #18 | |
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06-28-2004, 03:42 AM | #19 |
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This discussion raises the issue that of the four people who "fell", only one availed themselves of redemption (Boromir). Grima, Saruman and Smeagol all rejected redemption.
I think this lies in the basic reason behind these people desiring the ring or power. In Boromir's case, he desired the ring (power) to aid his people. The power was not to fulfil his ego but to help others - as misguided as this may seem. In a way this could be seen as a selfless act and therefore his character is more likely to be able to repent. In the case of Grima, Smeagol and Saruman - they desired the ring (or power) for themselves and they acted in a self-centred way. It is harder to repent when greed was the original driving force. You would need to change your basic character. We have all forgotten to mention another character who "fell". Does not Frodo "fall" in the end. What would have been the outcome for Frodo's character if Gollum had not become involved in his fate?
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06-28-2004, 09:43 AM | #20 |
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very good topic Val!
i'd have to agree with elanor on frodo... one has to give him credit for all he went through to get the ring where he did... yet, in the end, he did fail which also sheads an interesting light on the other four... there is a certain unresistable power behind the ring/sauron... even the powerful who resisted the temptation (gandalf, aragorn, galadriel, etc.), did so more by avoiding it than overcoming it's influence... and there is at least the implication that given the right circumstances, even the most virtuous would be corrupted (except old tom bombadil, but i think he was somewhat beyond the moral dilemmas of good and evil) while gollum and grima fell pretty quick into evil... saruman was asked to study the enemy, and was even exposed to him via the palantir... can we completely put it on his shoulders that he did not resist prolonged, direct confrontation that arguably would have eventually corrupted even the strongest wills in middle earth? and boromir... can we completely brush aside the influence of his father and the task that was laid upon him... he was put in a position where his loyalties to his people and to the fellowship were put in direct conflict... add the ring's influence into the mix and we may be holding him to a standard that is nearly impossible to achieve
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