How many balrogs were there?

Gil-Galad 2.0 · 07-21-2006, 01:40 AM

Well, how many are there? I have heard that there where only seven and I've also heard that there were thousands. If anyone has a qoute that is usfull please post it.

orithil · 07-21-2006, 02:05 AM

the silmarillion said melkor used them in wars so there would be hundreds

jammi567 · 07-21-2006, 04:13 AM

in the early stories, there were thousands upon thousands. but then, tolkien changed his mind (he was always doing this

), and said there were only a total of seven, including the one in moria, one killed in the battle of gondolin, and one killed by glorfindal in the mountains, shortly after the battle.

The Telcontarion · 07-21-2006, 07:53 AM

Certainly not seven, as in the "Unfinished Tales," in the recount of the fall of Gondolin alone, their where at least 20. And that was only a fraction of his army.

jammi567 · 07-21-2006, 11:01 AM

where did you get twenty from?

BeardofPants · 07-21-2006, 05:16 PM

From Morgoth's ring : (Annals of Aman): "In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'" Kinda hard to draw the line though, as the numbers went up and down throughout the development of Middle-earth, starting off in the thousands in BoLT. The Silm is not clear, and should not be taken as canon anyway as Christopher Tolkien perhaps did not do the *best* editing job ever. However, it is possible to postulate that as the development of the legendariam of Middle-earth progressed, and the balrog moved from merely henchmen to maiar status, Tolkien may have thought to limit their numbers to indicate their new formidable status (and it is at this point that the Umaiar concept was introduced whereby they 'followed' Morgoth, and were no longer his creations).

jammi567 · 07-21-2006, 06:20 PM

i thought so.

Gil-Galad 2.0 · 07-21-2006, 06:27 PM

Sorry, I know you people like acronyms but what does, BoLT, stand for?

Gwaimir Windgem · 07-21-2006, 07:40 PM

Book of Lost Tales.

BeardofPants · 07-21-2006, 09:14 PM

Yep, Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2 - the first 2 in the Histories of Middle Earth series.

jammi567 · 07-25-2006, 04:26 PM

yep, first two in a series of 12.

Butterbeer · 07-25-2006, 06:04 PM

ok then ... so just who killed 'em all?

The Telcontarion · 07-25-2006, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammi567

where did you get twenty from?

In BOLT 2, in the sack of gondolin, it is said that when turgon entered the battle he and his house killed 2 score (20) balrogs. Before that tuor had killed 5 and ecthelion 3. The house of the hammer had killed as much before they were completely destroyed, just by the wording of that whole batlle.

So I would say there where alot more than 20 balrogs and that was just those morgoth sent for sack of that fair sity.

durinsbane2244 · 07-25-2006, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barliman

ok then ... so just who killed 'em all?

*indignant* a very mean person who attacks in a dishonorly manner, as that's the only way to take us out...at least, me...ha! like you could take me out anyway...

barliman...

BeardofPants · 07-25-2006, 08:44 PM

Does anyone else wanna explain to Telcontarion exactly why the numbers drawn from BoLT are problematic?

Gwaimir Windgem · 07-25-2006, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

In BOLT 2, in the sack of gondolin, it is said that when turgon entered the battle he and his house killed 2 score (20) balrogs. Before that tuor had killed 5 and ecthelion 3. The house of the hammer had killed as much before they were completely destroyed, just by the wording of that whole batlle.

So I would say there where alot more than 20 balrogs and that was just those morgoth sent for sack of that fair sity.

Well, if we're going to take that as canon, which I don't think we can, that's 48 right there.

Personally, my maxim for such matters is "the later the better". I find that as a whole, the changes in Tolkien's work over time were genuine development, so I will stick by Morgoth's Rings 'three or at most seven'.

Butterbeer · 07-26-2006, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Does anyone else wanna explain to Telcontarion exactly why the numbers drawn from BoLT are problematic?

*looks over shoulder at BoP*
nah ... i am too busy repeatedly bashin ol Big bals here on da head fer calling me barliman ( which is my rpg character not me good self, else i wouldna mind)

*bash*
*starts to whistle*
*bash*
"whistle while you work ...."
*bash*

The Telcontarion · 07-26-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

*looks over shoulder at BoP*
nah ... i am too busy repeatedly bashin ol Big bals here on da head fer calling me barliman ( which is my rpg character not me good self, else i wouldna mind)

*bash*
*starts to whistle*
*bash*
"whistle while you work ...."
*bash*

barliman? Hah!! Nice nickname, you can also call me The Tar Minyaturion.

Ellf · 07-26-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammi567

in the early stories, there were thousands upon thousands. but then, tolkien changed his mind (he was always doing this

), and said there were only a total of seven, including the one in moria, one killed in the battle of gondolin, and one killed by glorfindal in the mountains, shortly after the battle.

I am curious, where did Tolkien write that there were a total of 7 Balrogs?

jammi567 · 07-26-2006, 02:22 PM

Have a look at post 6 for an answer.

07-21-2006, 01:40 AM	#1
Gil-Galad 2.0 Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Around Posts: 18	How many balrogs were there? Well, how many are there? I have heard that there where only seven and I've also heard that there were thousands. If anyone has a qoute that is usfull please post it.

07-21-2006, 02:05 AM	#2
orithil Captain Jack Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: High Charity Posts: 598	the silmarillion said melkor used them in wars so there would be hundreds __________________ Captain Jack Sparrow: When you marooned me on that god forsaken spit of land, you forgot one very important thing, mate: I’m Captain Jack Sparrow. Cortana: So have you got a plan to get out? Master Chief: I was gonna shoot my way out. Mix things up a little.

07-21-2006, 04:13 AM	#3
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	in the early stories, there were thousands upon thousands. but then, tolkien changed his mind (he was always doing this ), and said there were only a total of seven, including the one in moria, one killed in the battle of gondolin, and one killed by glorfindal in the mountains, shortly after the battle. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-21-2006, 07:53 AM	#4
The Telcontarion The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: By the shores of cuivinien Posts: 694	Certainly not seven, as in the "Unfinished Tales," in the recount of the fall of Gondolin alone, their where at least 20. And that was only a fraction of his army. __________________ Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

07-21-2006, 11:01 AM	#5
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	where did you get twenty from? __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-21-2006, 05:16 PM	#6
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	From Morgoth's ring : (Annals of Aman): "In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'" Kinda hard to draw the line though, as the numbers went up and down throughout the development of Middle-earth, starting off in the thousands in BoLT. The Silm is not clear, and should not be taken as canon anyway as Christopher Tolkien perhaps did not do the best editing job ever. However, it is possible to postulate that as the development of the legendariam of Middle-earth progressed, and the balrog moved from merely henchmen to maiar status, Tolkien may have thought to limit their numbers to indicate their new formidable status (and it is at this point that the Umaiar concept was introduced whereby they 'followed' Morgoth, and were no longer his creations). __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

07-21-2006, 06:20 PM	#7
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	i thought so. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-21-2006, 06:27 PM	#8
Gil-Galad 2.0 Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Around Posts: 18	Sorry, I know you people like acronyms but what does, BoLT, stand for?

07-21-2006, 07:40 PM	#9
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Book of Lost Tales. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

07-21-2006, 09:14 PM	#10
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Yep, Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2 - the first 2 in the Histories of Middle Earth series. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

07-25-2006, 04:26 PM	#11
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	yep, first two in a series of 12. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-25-2006, 06:04 PM	#12
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	ok then ... so just who killed 'em all?

07-25-2006, 08:44 PM	#15
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Does anyone else wanna explain to Telcontarion exactly why the numbers drawn from BoLT are problematic? __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

07-26-2006, 02:22 PM	#20
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	Have a look at post 6 for an answer. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

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