03-09-2009, 10:21 AM | #1 | ||
Elf Lord
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Ability to Communicate with The One Ring
[EDIT: Discussion split off from the thread Hunt for the Ring at members' request - Eärniel]
I wasn't sure whether this thread, the "Why drop Merry" thread, or a new thread was more appropriate for this observation/question/hypothesis but here it is at any rate. I'll be happy to move it or have it moved as necessary. I was reading/listening to the Prancing Pony chapter last evening and noticed that not once but twice it is mentioned that Frodo's impulse to put on the ring seemed to come from "in the room": Quote:
Quote:
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03-09-2009, 01:45 PM | #2 | |
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Quote:
It sounds reasonable to me. The point of the observation about the Nazgûl across the street from the Inn in “why did the Nazgûl drop Merry at Bree” was that Merry saw the Ringwraith near the Inn at very nearly the same time that Frodo had his “accident” with the Ring. It seemed logical to me that this Ringwraith was “calling to” or “pinging” the Ring (to use as 21st century term). There is no reason to think that an “uncloaked,” completely invisible Nazgûl was not in the Commons Room except this: my understanding is that when “uncloaked,” invisible Nazgûl cause more terror to living Men that when they can be seen, perhaps because the fear they feel has no source the Living can locate. I think it would have been difficult for an “uncloaked” Ringwraith to suppress the fear the folks in the Commons Room would naturally have experienced because of its presence. I think that either Frodo mistook the influence of the Nazgûl outside the Inn for something inside the Inn; or more likely that the Ring itself, awakened and invigorated by the Nazgûl nearby, was the influence inside the Inn that Frodo discerned. |
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03-09-2009, 02:58 PM | #3 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Could the nazgul teach the Isengarder how to issue the "ping" command?
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03-09-2009, 04:01 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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Or is it a "line of sight" kind of thing? If the Nazgul could "see" through one of the windows from outside, would it make a difference? Or if he suspected the Ring's presence in the Inn, at least, could he possibly focus "the ping" on the common room rather than just sending it out in a circle? I know I'm probably keying on one phrase more than it's worth, but Frodo's sense that the command came from within the room, repeated twice by Tolkien, makes me feel like if the command wasn't originated in the room, it was at least focused toward the room.
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03-09-2009, 05:12 PM | #5 |
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It would certainly have been focused on the Ring, and not on Frodo: the action on him would be through the dingus. The Ring was in the room: it was on his person, and eventually it found itself on his finger!
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03-09-2009, 06:46 PM | #6 | ||
Hobbit
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But what it was, then? Certainly it was nothing from outside the room. We know that, like The Dread Pirate Roberts pointed out, it's been said too many times for us to ignore it. But I think even the Ring itself is not the answer. The way it's put it's made likely that it was not the Ring calling upon itself, or at least, not really just for itself. You are all making it too complicated, I think. Why to speak of pinging. Bill Ferny or some Southerner simply wanted, wanted desperately to know something about the Ring, and their wish simply, well, "materialised" or came true. "Evil will", simply. It concentrated to the point that the Ring caught upon their malicious thoughts and responded. Remember what Gandalf and others repeated too many times: the Ring has a will of its own, and it wants to be found. It understood that Gollum is a malicious creature, and responded to his thoughts, and Gollum took it. So, indeed, Alcuin's hypothesis is the closest to truth, I'd say: just with the addittion that it was not solely the Ring itself, but the Ring reacting to Bill Ferny's intent to obtain some information on the Ringbearer. |
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03-09-2009, 07:47 PM | #7 |
Sapling
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Wow...not sure I can get through all that in a year...LOL. )
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03-09-2009, 10:08 PM | #8 |
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Unless Sauron equipped the Nazgûl with some item that could awaken or arouse the malice of the One Ring, and they gave it to Ferny so that he could carry it into the Prancing Pony, I cannot see how Bill Ferny – however mischievous malicious, or maleficent he might hew – could cause the Ring to incite such an event as happened to Frodo. The Nazgûl, on the other hand, had no doubt been especially prepared by the Lord of the Rings to complete the quest they had undertaken; providing them with some means to “call” to the Ring in order to induce it to reveal itself seems to me an obvious step for Sauron.
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03-10-2009, 09:03 AM | #9 | ||
Elf Lord
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I'm not so sure a Nazgul is unable to sneak around because he uncontrollably projects fear everywhere he goes. It's a good argument but I'm not quite ready to give up if there's a possible alternative.
The fear they inspire is certainly undeniable when it's at work, and none of that fear appeared in the common room of the Pony that night. That said, is there any evidence that the fear a Nazgul projects is or isn't under their control? They scare geese and dogs and hobbits and even men, but isn't that because they want to? When the Nazgul tried to bribe Farmer Maggot with gold, Maggot didn't report feeling dread, but rather the Nazgul seems to have focused just a tiny hint of fear toward him: Quote:
The Gaffer didn't show any fear of the Nazgul, and his encounter was right around nightfall. Ferny and the Southerner apparently weren't too terrified to make bargains with the Nazgul, either. And another with Frodo, when the Nazgul overtook them on the flat near the fords: Quote:
I'm not convinced that the Nazgul couldn't control the amount of fear they put out. If they could, then an unclothed Ringwraith could sneak around if he chose to. At least it bears further investigation, IMO.
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03-10-2009, 11:35 AM | #10 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I think the "RingPinger" was not a device, it was a spell. The nazgul must have taught it to the Southerner (maybe also to Ferny) before sending them into the common room. This spell - words of command in BS - could have helped the spies to make their presence known to the Ring. |
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03-10-2009, 11:55 AM | #11 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I do not believe that the Nazgul would have any power whatever over the Ring. On the contrary, we are told that it "draws them." Now, I do not entirely believe that Aragorn was an initiate of Ring-lore to any great degree, and I doubt (corrections gratefully accepted) that he had any previous contact with the Nine. Rather, I would think this was lore handed down among the Dunedain or at the House of Elrond. Furthermore, I believe we have sufficient evidence that the Ring was at least semi-sentient, able to react when its Master "put forth his dark thought," at least to the extent of abandoning Isildur and Gollum. Now, I do not for a second credit the Movie's vision of the Ring rolling merrily along like a child's old-fashioned barrel-hoop, but I do feel that it could slip off, as we have ample testimony, perhaps clouding the Bearer's mind as to whether or not it had done so. Indeed, this is the only way I can explain the Bilbo-Gollum contretemps.
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03-10-2009, 01:56 PM | #12 | ||||
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I am sure the nazgul could control the fear they projected, but to some extent. They were able to tone it down - but not obliterate it entirely, otherwise all Sauron's problems when sending the Nazgul (see UT) would have been moot. Certainly while traveling unclad through Anorien they tried to pass unobserved, yet their terror went with them. Later they tried to pass for ordinary people, but the fear the people felt gave them away: " terror went before them and lingered behind them; but they did not find what they sought nor learn any news that availed them".-UT Also, I believe different nazgul were able to tone down their terror to a different degree: the more powerful the nazgul, the stronger the residual fear. Thus the three strongest ones (ABC) were not employed to question people, but remained guarding the roads. Both the Southerner and Grima nearly died from terror when being questioned by the WK: yet I doubt it was the Captain's intent. Our Bree nazgul, H and I , were most likely the weakest of the Nine, so their questioning etc. caused no great stir in the town. Yet the dogs were howling, the geese screaming and Nob's hair stood on end, so some residual fear remained. Khamul seemed also quite good in "toning the fear down" - both the Gaffer and Maggot felt more or less OK. There was also the nazgul sent to Erebor to talk with Dain. This one was not bad in toning down his fear either. I would guess it was most likely G or F, as he traveled so far from Mordor alone. Though maybe there was a pair sent from Mordor: one went to Erebor, another to Dale to speak with King Brand. Quote:
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I don't believe Frodo would be much inclined to sing merrily about the cow and jump on the table if there were an unclad nazgul in the same room. |
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03-10-2009, 03:42 PM | #13 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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If you'd ever been treed by one on top a butane tank, you wouldn't bear them a lot of good will, let me assure you.
Seriously, the dogs and geese thing was a part of the English traditional response to ghosts.
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03-10-2009, 05:53 PM | #14 | |
Hobbit
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Gordis is right about the fear the Nazgul produced. It is all in "The Hunt for the Ring", and also implied elsewhere. I would agree what he said - that Nazgul were able to regulate the fear they produced, but just a little, not completely, and it also depended on the circumstances and on the individual Nazgul. And mainly, an unclad Nazgul did indeed cause far much fear than a clad Nazgul.
And it is really impossible for one to enter the Inn. That would be a silly thing to do, and they would not have dared to do that, if only for fear of scaring away the Ringbearer if he was there. Another thing is that Strider says: Quote:
Ad pinging: I really don't think there was any problem with the Ring responding to Ferny's malice. It reacted to Gollum's malice, after all; I don't think Sméagol was any more evil than Ferny back then. And it was the general atmosphere, the Dark Lord was thinking about it all the time, the Ringwraith were near, and so the Ring was as awakened as possible, and when somebody close to it just thought about the Ringbearer, it just had to manifest itself. The Ring must have felt that the path to go back to its Master is just so close, if only Ferny notices it. It is as if a kid with a soft voice was lost in a supermarket and suddenly heard somebody calling its name. "Damn," thought Ferny, "just if something happened that would show me where to look..." "Hey! Bill! Yes, I am here!" |
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03-10-2009, 06:45 PM | #15 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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What exactly do you mean, Legate? |
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03-11-2009, 03:54 PM | #16 | ||
Hobbit
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But whatever, it's a rather speculative argument. It's not that I build mainly on that. |
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03-11-2009, 10:15 PM | #17 |
Elf Lord
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Do you think Ferny knew the Nazgul were looking for the Ring? I think if he did, the info was probably slipped to him by the Southernor. I can't imagine the Nazgul telling anyone why they sought Baggins. The Southernor, on the other hand, was presumably originally working for Saruman and would have to have been informed about the Ring. Otherwise, what would his mission from Saruman be?
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03-12-2009, 11:20 AM | #18 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I doubt that the Nazgul would dare mention the Ring to a mortal. I'm sure they described it more on the lines of "the least of rings, a small trifle in earnest of your good will that Sauron craves."
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03-13-2009, 08:35 AM | #19 |
Hobbit
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Yes, something like that. And it is also possible they did not mention the Ring at all, and just mentioned Baggins. (Who wasn't there at all, just some Underhill guy.) But it's possible they did mention the Ring - but just in the way Attalus says, of course. Anyway, Ferny did not need to know what exactly is he looking for to "stir" the Ring, he just had to know that he wants to find "something" or "somebody", and the Ring knew "ha, somebody's looking for the faintest hint, and it will bring me to my Master if I just catch his attention, so let's just do something".
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03-13-2009, 04:23 PM | #20 | ||
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By the way, I don’t believe the Nazgûl had or used an item to “ping” the One Ring, and I certainly don’t believe they would entrust such a thing to a lowlife like Ferny or the Isengarder spy. I don’t think they would even go much beyond, “Look for the Shire hobbits to do anything unusual.” My example was offered as hyperbole: something most unlikely, and so most likely untrue. If Ferny or the Southerner spy had anything to do with the “something in the room” at the Inn, the most sensible thing to assume is that the Nazgûl was using them as a focus for its own evil actions. Such magic, or goetia, would be a necromancy, and in line with the kind of thing that might be expected of a servant of Sauron the Necromancer. My own opinion is that the “something in the room” was the Ring itself and that it in turn was responding to a spell cast by the Nazgûl outside. That is the simplest explanation. The next simplest explanation is that the Nazgûl used necromancy on Ferny and the Southerner to focus its magic inside the room. The idea that Ferny or the Southerner had sufficient ill-will to arouse the Ring seems to me without foundation in the text. Their instructions were probably to watch the Shire-hobbits and report all that they did, particularly anything unusual. As Strider told them, Quote:
Last edited by Alcuin : 03-13-2009 at 04:24 PM. |
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