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11-28-2008, 02:42 AM | #1 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Christian and Jewish influences in Tolkien's work?
Repost: What do you think of this:
We all know Tolkien was heavily influenced by christianity. Now look at the simularities. 1. Israel was split into two kingdoms, the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah - So was the Dúnedain in ME 2. The north kingdom, kingdom of Israel was larger - So was Arnor 3. The Kingdom of Israel was eventually over run and scattered - So was Arnor 4. Kingdom of Judah remained - So did Gondor 5. Eldarion's birth united the royal half elvin lines - The birth of Jesus united the two royal lines of king David. I have been meaning to bring this up but as you can see I have been busy.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
11-28-2008, 02:49 AM | #2 |
Deus Ex Machina
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle
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I distinctly recall Tolkien writing of an intense dislike for allegorical interpretations of Lord of the Rings. There are very christian tones in the Ainulindale and some of his writings on Eldarin culture. But I sincerely doubt he meant such a close parallel as you've presented in the plot of his primary work.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
11-28-2008, 11:31 AM | #3 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
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I know what Tolkien said...
Quote:
It is widely known however that his faith did have a huge impact on his work.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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11-28-2008, 11:50 AM | #4 |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
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At least it's there for you. You could draw a WWII parallel just as closely. People see in a work what they want to see. Christianity is important to you - it's not surprising that you see it, whether Tolkien intended it or not.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
11-28-2008, 12:02 PM | #5 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
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Quote:
There are indeed many parallels that can be drawn upon when it comes to the experiences and interests of a writer and the evolution of his/her work: "The way in which a story-germ uses the soil of experience is a complex thing, and any attempt to characterize the process are at best guesses from inadequate and ambiguous evidence." (JRRT, Introduction to the Fellowship of The Rings)
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 11-28-2008 at 12:08 PM. |
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11-29-2008, 01:28 AM | #6 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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You might be on to something there, Tel. Of course, I feel sure that Tolkien didn't intend it, but it's quite possible that the history of the Dunadan kingdoms was influenced by his knowledge of the history of the kingdom of Israel.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-29-2008, 01:47 AM | #7 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
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Yeah...it just seems to me to make a lot of sense and fits together nicely; a perfect circle you might say.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
11-29-2008, 11:50 AM | #8 | |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
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Quote:
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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11-30-2008, 01:17 PM | #9 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
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Well...
In regards to this, of course it's just a best guess "skillful" one. I do believe however that due to the evidence provided that it was a good one.
__________________
Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
12-01-2008, 01:25 PM | #10 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Quote:
It is not merely the reader seeing what is wished for; it is substantially present. Tolkien's words (paraphrasing from memory) were that Christianity was present unconsciously in the writing, consciously in the revising, and Catholic (Roman) throughout! See the BBC interview video on utube cited in the thread on that topic for THE MAN saying so. On videotape, so it must be true, eh?!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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12-01-2008, 02:08 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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But Inked, literary critics (including individual readers) are entitled to draw independent conclusions. People in general, are, for that matter.
So if my spouse drops his socks in the middle of the livingroom floor, he can write as many letters, or blog posts, or give interviews as he wants saying, "My intent in dropping my socks was to create a moment of modern art in the midst of our humdrum existance" and I'm still entitled to say, "I'm offended by this behavior, you're treating me like a servant, or, worse, your mother. Cut it out." No less is Rinke entitled to say, "The resonance of this piece for me is its criticism of moderity" and be correct, even if that isn't the aspect JRRT fancied was the important one. The reader is not controlled by the author, still less by his "intent."
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
12-01-2008, 07:16 PM | #12 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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SACA,
"I'm still entitled to say, "I'm offended by this behavior, you're treating me like a servant, or, worse, your mother. Cut it out."" I take it then that your husband is not controlled by the intent of your words any more than a reader by the intent of the author? For the author has intent in writing (though more than consciously realised, to be sure) just as you have intent in adressing your husband's propensity for modern art. He also has intent in his art. ARe you getting his intent as well as he yours? I fear that when an author says he has an intent or specifically denies an attributed intent by a reader or critic, I have to listen to the author. Really listen to the author, though I may yet make my case. I suspect that it is easier to attribute intent when the author cannot so make clear the purposes intended or not. For instance, when your husband attributes his reading of your intent in your words, do you find you always agree? Do you grant him the say authority with your words as he arrogates to himself?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-01-2008, 10:10 PM | #13 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Short form, I'm a behaviorist. I don't care about his motivation or intent, but I do about his behavior.
In literature, then, as in law, I tend to be fairly textualist. I think it's too bad that people intend to say things that didn't go into the final draft, but, such is life. That's why I'm utterly uninterested in a lot of ancillary materials *cough*Silmarillion*cough* when I'm looking at The Hobbit. Either it's there on the page, or it's not. And if it's not, the viewpoint of the reader is equally valid as the expressed desire of the author. Don't get my intent. Get your socks.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
12-02-2008, 02:34 AM | #14 |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
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I have read Letters, Inked. And I know all that stuff is in there. I don't deny that Christianity had a great influence on Tolkien's work - I simply contest the fact that Lord of the Rings is a Christian allegory - like Tel is implying.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
12-02-2008, 07:39 AM | #15 | ||
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
|
wow...
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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12-02-2008, 07:42 AM | #16 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
|
Exactly...
Quote:
__________________
Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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12-02-2008, 08:03 AM | #17 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
|
I agree...
Quote:
If I read JRRT's letters, his interviews and even his academic lectures I will come to comprehend much of his own perspective, i.e. the embedded biases and affections of the author. Leading to a greater and a even more profound revelation, of the meanings behind the words he actually wrote.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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12-02-2008, 11:04 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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I agree wholeheartedly that it is NOT an allegory.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-02-2008, 11:07 PM | #19 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Quote:
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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12-03-2008, 01:07 AM | #20 |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
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Good, cause that's all I was saying. I was never trying to imply that it wasn't influenced by Christianity.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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