07-21-2002, 12:27 AM | #1 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth
I doubt this thread will get much response but here goes. First, How many of you have read Morgoth's Ring, and Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth? In the Athrabeth Andreth make a statement saying"Do candles pitty moths?" Finrod replies by saying "Or moths candles when the wind blows them out." I was wondering if anyone could explain the meaning of this?
I understand what Andreth is saying I think. The light of the candle attracts the moth and when the moth comes to the candle it gets burned. What I don't understand is what Finrod is saying. Does anyone know the meaning of it? Nolendil, MM, somebody, anybody? |
07-21-2002, 02:51 AM | #2 |
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I have no idea where to get a hold on one of those books , but I think I understand what they mean.
"Do candles pity moths?" Do the candles feel sorry or sad when the moths get burned and/or die? "Or moths candles when the wind blows them out? Or do the moths mind when the candles "die" ? Depending on what they were discussing just then, it might mean: do enemies care when the other suffers? Just a guess, I need to get one of those books.
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07-21-2002, 05:14 AM | #3 |
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Candles and moths? I thought 'flaming' was against forum policy...http://www.contrabandent.com/cwm/s/o...gue/crazy3.gif
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07-21-2002, 08:51 AM | #4 |
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I haven't read Morgoth's Ring yet, but I'll comment on the phrases even though I'm not aware of their context.
They have a sense of poignancy about them, somewhat of a sense of inevetibility. As if Finrod is saying would pity make a difference.
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07-21-2002, 10:37 AM | #5 |
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Pretty good interpretations so far. For those of you who have not read Morgoth's Ring, These statement that are made between Finrod and Andreth surround a conversation concerning the love between Finrod's brother Aegnor, and Andreth who is a mortal woman. Aegnor turned his back on Andreth because of the fate that devided them as Elf and Mortal, which is the only instance in Tolkien where we have an Elven Male in love with a Human Female. Andreth is very distraught as she is discussing this with Finrod.
Anymore ideas? This is intriguing. |
07-21-2002, 12:48 PM | #6 |
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I have looked up the passage in the book. It sounds like a tale of unrequited love. The moth is Andreth ( woman ), the flame is Aegnor ( elf ). I find it interesting that in this instance, the elf does not give up his immortality for the woman he loves, but turns away from her instead, unable to deal with the gulf of time between them. She bitterly says do elves pity men? Finrod has previously described 2 types of pity: one of ' kinship recognised ' the other of ' fortune perceived ' Finrod may be trying to say that Aegnor doesn't pity her because she does not have his immortality but rather because that his true love will not be with him always. In other words, the same as she would mourn Aegnor
if his demise preceeded hers. SGH, thank you for bringing this lovely story to my attention.
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07-21-2002, 01:31 PM | #7 |
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Elvet, you may have hit the nail on the head here. I believe that on the next page or so, Finrod says something about Aegnor's demise. Something to the effect of "too soon in the north wind his flame will go out." or something like that. That statement can then be refered back to the candle moth metaphor, placing Andreth in the role of the moth and Aegnor in the role of the candle, or flame. It is confusing though why Aegnor turned away from Andreth, considering he died before her. They certianly could have had a brief life together, but perhaps he wished to spare both of them the pain of that loss since they would not die together or at the same time, but even though he chose not to be with her, he chose to remain in Mandos to the end of Arda and not be re-embodied and live again because of her.
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07-21-2002, 03:41 PM | #8 | |
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Here's the context of the quotes:
Quote:
You actually need more, I think, to get the full picture. When Andreth said "Do candles pity moths?' she is speaking about Aegnor and herself. The candle is Aegnor and she herself is the moth. She believes herself scorned; "he turned away, and he young still" she says. She has been drawn to his flame and has been burned, as Sister Golden Hair rightly said. But Finrod responds out of the midst of, I believe, his ominous foresight with "Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?". Twice late he speaks of the North-wind: "But too soon in the North-wind his flame will go out!" and " -- ever, until the North0wind brings the night of his flame." Fourty-six years after this conversation, Aegnor met the onset of the Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame, and was burned to death. Finrod is reminding Andreth with his comment that she is not the only one who is suffering and she will not be the only one. Aegnor will soon die and go to Mandos, while she will live on. The North-wind will blow out the candle and the moth will be left alone.
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07-22-2002, 03:10 PM | #9 | |
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Great analogy Nolendil. Since you posted all the sources from the book, would you care to try figuring out another one? This one is also another I don't understand.
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Elvet, you are more then welcome. It is a lovely, but sad story isn't it? |
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07-24-2002, 12:11 AM | #10 |
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Here's a guess
Finrod is saying that Andreth is judging Aegnor by her own cultural (human) standards. But Aegnor is an elf. Finrod then goes on to explain how elves act in a time of war. I don't think Aegnor could bare the thought of watching Andreth grow old and die. Neither could he flee with her and abandon both their kindreds. Sadness.
When he says; "until they learn, as do few.", I believe he may mean that few elves or men truly learn the ways of the other.
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07-24-2002, 09:40 AM | #11 | |
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09-09-2002, 01:43 PM | #12 | |
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Andreth's view is "let's enjoy our time together while I am young because we love each other so much, then I won't bother him anymore" ("I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent"), but she didn't realize that he would not let her leave him alone because he loved her too much ("He would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee"). Really, really interesting story - gives such a good feel of two very similar but still very different cultures coming together. And Finrod is such a great guy! *runs over to Finrod Is Coolest Elven King Thread to check latest posting*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-09-2002, 02:03 PM | #13 |
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Welcome to Entmoot Rian. I am so glad you brought my thread back. The Athrabeth is one of my favorite works of Tolkien. A very moving piece of work. And yes, Finrod is a great guy. My favorite charachter.
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09-09-2002, 05:39 PM | #14 |
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Something else I am wondering. At the end of the story Finrod tells Andreth not to weep. I am quoting from memory so it may not be exact but he says something like "But I may as well tell thee not to weep. for he is a warrior Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. And with every stroke he deals, he sees the enemy that long ago did thee this hurt." This is Finrod telling Andreth again that Aegnor is going to die. I think this passage has the sound of self sacrifice in it. Do you think that Aegnor gave his life in vengance for Andreth's hurt caused by the enemy, or did he just fall plainly defending his people? Remember that Angrod also died in the fires of Thangordrum, so it wasn't like they died in some great sword fight like the Athrabeth implies. What are your views? Did he die for Andreth, his people, or both?
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09-09-2002, 07:37 PM | #15 |
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hmmm, I'm going to have to think about that a bit - there's a lot going on there, and I think I'll have to wait until the kids are in bed to get some thinking time (I'm in the middle of after-school homework and snack time, and just took a quick peek at this thread because I like the Athrabeth so much!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-09-2002, 09:23 PM | #16 | |
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09-09-2002, 11:48 PM | #17 | |
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I think, therefore, that he fought with more abandon and risk than would an elf with a wife and children. Middle Earth had less attraction for him, and the peace of Valinor probably more. I don't think he would throw his life away on purpose, but I think he would certainly volunteer to "lead the charge," as it were. Really fills in a lot of very touching history for a character who was previously just a name (and always with his brother, Angrod!) in the Sil!! Do you like how Finrod changes to using "thee" and "thou" when he gets to the very personal and tragic subject of her relationship with Aegnor? It seems so tender and loving for him to do this as the brother of the one she loved. Really beautiful writing.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-10-2002, 12:34 AM | #18 | |||
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09-10-2002, 12:59 AM | #19 | |
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Have to get to the rest of your comment later - enjoying the discussion!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-10-2002, 12:57 PM | #20 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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DRAT! Now I have to look up dates! (I was always terrible with dates in History classes!) *gets paper, pencil, and copy of Sil held together with packing tape* ... hroom, hroom ... *thinks of starting thread "how many pieces are your tolkien books in, and what do you use to hold them together with?"* ... Ah, yes!
Yes, it was not a time of war like one of the big battles, but things were certainly still dangerous - "and war never wholly ceased in all that time of the Siege, for Morgoth devised new evils and ever and anon he would make trial of his enemies." (from "Of the Return of the Noldor" chapter, pg. 136 in mine - do we have the same edition??) Also, Aegnor and Angrod dwelt very close to Thangorodrim, and I'm sure were much more aware of impending doom - "for they dwelt in regions whence Thangorodrim could be descried, and the threat of Morgoth was present to their thought." That's why they were the only ones to agree with Fingolfin that they should fight Morgoth. (from "Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin"). Also, in the Athrabeth war/marriage quote, Finrod says explicitly "This IS time of war" (emphasis mine), so apparently he considered it a time of war, and "in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child ...". Why would he say this if he did not think it applied to her situation? Again, "Aegnor has no trust ... in this siege of Angband that it will last long ..." I think, being so close to the situation, that he really has a bad feeling about things. So that's where I was coming from with my thoughts about the situation. What do you think? p.s. - I've heard about something called "The Annals of Beleriand". Do you know anything about that? If so, is it worth getting? Is it part of the HoME series? *I will NOT end up with all the HoME books! I will NOT end up with all the HoME books! I will .. oh well* What a long post! Looking forward to your reply ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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