01-13-2011, 05:57 PM | #1 |
Hobbit
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When the ship got there............
Random observations from the Holy mountain #3:
Did Tolkien write anywhere about what happened when the Ship of the Ringbearers reached Valinor? Seriously! think about it! Galadriel hadn't seen her father Finarfin for 7,052 years! And all of her brothers died at different points during the first age, so she hadn't seen them for over 6,000 years! And poor Elrond, now 6,520 years old if my calculations are correct, had never met his parents (within memory, unless elves reach sapience at 2) before this! Not to mention that Frodo and Bilbo were the first hobbits, the first mortals since the disobedient Numenoreans ,and the first PEACEFUL mortals since Tuor, to come to Valinor. And Gandalf was the only one of the five Ishtari to return! This is some amazing stuff!
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A Elbereth Gilthoniel! Hail Luthien Tinuviel! Hail Beren Erchamion and the fair Dior! Who died before his time, curse the oath of Feanor! Hail his daughter Elwing and Earendil! Forbearers of the Peredhil! Alone among the children free to choose the Edain or the Eldalie! A Elbereth Gilthoniel! Hail Manwe on Taniquetil! Last edited by Taniquetil : 01-13-2011 at 06:00 PM. |
01-13-2011, 11:09 PM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
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If only I was the expert that knew. Great question though! Will be checking back constantly for an answer.
If the Professor didn't record any of the events after the ship set sail, maybe we could meet with Chris and see if he's encountered anything.
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Elleth Valatari "We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil." — J.R.R. Tolkien |
01-14-2011, 04:14 AM | #3 |
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No expert, but…
I don’t think they went to Valinor. I think they went to Tol Eressëa (also called “The Lonely Isle”), the island just off the coast of Valinor in the Bay of Eldamar. Depending upon which version of the telling you prefer, the returning Noldor might have remained there. (See Letter 131.) It is possible that many of the first Númenórean kings (or crown princes) might have been permitted a single visit – again, depending upon which version of the story you prefer. There was an eastward-looking port there, Avallónë, whose towers far-sighted Dúnedain could glimpse from the peak of Meneltarma (and possibly from Andúnië – again, depending upon which telling you rely upon) in Númenor. In its heyday, the Eldar sailed frequently from Avallónë to Andúnië and Eldalondë in Númenor to visit the Dúnedain. Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli spent the rest of their lives in Tol Eressëa. Tolkien explicitly says that Frodo died in Tol Eressëa in Letter 246, so we can be certain that Bilbo and Sam (who joined Frodo much later after his wife Rose died) did, too, and Gimli as well. If Elendil’s father Amandil, the last Lord of Andúnië, made it to Tol Eressëa to warn the Valar about Ar-Pharazôn’s impending Sauron-inspired attack on Valinor, as seems likely, he probably died there, too. |
01-15-2011, 11:41 PM | #4 | ||
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01-16-2011, 01:03 PM | #5 | |
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In letter 325 (1971) Tolkien writes that Frodo and other mortals 'could only dwell in Aman for limited time -- whether brief or long.' In texts written before this letter Aman did not include Eressea, but at the beginning of this letter Tolkien writes: 'The 'immortals' who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman -- the undying lands of Valinor and Eressea, an island assigned to the Eldar -- set sail in ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage,...'
Is Tolkien defining Aman here? and isn't Eressea at least part of the Undying Lands and the 'West', also removed from the Circles of the World? But even if so, what does 'assigned to the Eldar' mean? The Sindar are certainly Eldar: are they not allowed to pass to Eldamar and meet sundered Telerin kin for example -- or is this just a late 'loose' description maybe, and shouldn't be examined so closely. In the famed letter to Waldman (131) Tolkien noted that the Exiles were not to dwell permanently in Valinor again -- hmm, does that mean they could still visit? and if so for how long (especially considering these are Elves here). Granted this might be considered some level of 'punishment', I admit. Or did JRRT 'really mean' simply that the Noldor should not return at all to Aman? But either way, does this mean that even Galadriel for instance, after passing her test, was confined in some measure to Eressea -- where the Sindar, even Silvan Elves, could pass to Aman. And why can't Frodo at least visit Aman? Or do I just ask too many questions here Letter 131 appears to be echoed in Galadriel's line in The Elessar where she asks why she should be content with an Isle in the Sea instead of Aman; but this was Tolkien's earlier idea: Quote:
So Christopher Tolkien's decision here appears to echo at least the Silmarillion as it still stood. I don't know. maybe Tolkien later thought that this was too easy an ending and that the surviving Noldor should pay some price, but certainly the Sindar were not part of the Rebellion in any case. So far, the Quenta Silmarillion idea seems 'easier' to me. Though opinions can change Last edited by Galin : 01-16-2011 at 01:12 PM. |
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01-16-2011, 04:54 PM | #6 |
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Tol Eressëa was certainly part of the Undying West. The Númenóreans were forbidden to sail there, though perhaps the crown princes were permitted a short visit during the first half of the Second Age, depending upon which telling of the story we follow. Besides, it was taken up from the Circles of the World along with Valinor and Eldamar, making it a place that could not be reached by mortals after the Downfall of Númenor. So yes, I think Tolkien is saying that Tol Eressëa is part of Aman, in the same sense that Long Island or Newfoundland are part of North America, or Great Britain and Ireland are part of Europe.
On the other hand, the Cottage of Lost Play sounds a lot like a purgatory, doesn’t it? |
01-17-2011, 08:53 AM | #7 |
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Yes, my second question, though in question form, should have been more along the lines of: Is Tolkien defining Aman here? 'because' (I think it's generally mutually agreed upon that) Tol Eressea is part of the Undying Lands and also Removed for the Circles of the World. In other words I didn't think anyone would disagree with that much.
If Eressea could arguably be considered part of Aman -- in contrast to earlier text in which the Isle is distinct from 'Aman' -- maybe Tolkien has re-defined the term by this late date, or at least for this letter! And if so, he seemingly notes that Frodo could dwell in Aman -- at least appearing to allow more than Eressea. But this letter aside: in general I'm not sure why Frodo 'should' necessarily be restricted from 'Aman proper' let's say: he already had special status, and Tolkien's text on Aman (Morgoth's Ring) explains that mortals did not actually age faster there (at least before the removal of the lands). Last edited by Galin : 01-17-2011 at 09:08 AM. |
01-18-2011, 02:04 AM | #8 | |
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I think there must some sort of distinction between the conditions of Eldamar the [i]coastlands of Valinor east of the Pelóri, and the interior of Valinor, because Tolkien made a comment that the Elves needed the air of the outside world or some such. Silmarillion, “Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor”,
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That doesn’t mean that Men could not visit Eldamar, although there is no record of that for anyone save Eärendil and Elwing. (It seems that the Smith of Wootton Major also visited Eldamar, and that he even travelled briefly into the interior of Valinor; but this tale might be separate from the general Legendarium.) So yes, I think there is a difference between the island of Tol Eressëa, Eldamar along the coast of Valinor, and the interior of Valinor west of the Mountains of Aman (Pelóri). All of them are part of Aman, the Uttermost West. The differences could be a matter of intensity, an effect of moving further and further from Middle-earth, original home of both Elves and Men. Last edited by Alcuin : 01-18-2011 at 02:05 AM. |
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01-18-2011, 12:01 PM | #9 | |||
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So, as I interpret the matter anyway, the Vanyar who had already passed through the gap and dwelt beyond must breath this air at times, thus the gap was left open -- essentially allowing this air in, in enough measure. Quote:
Yes it does come from that text, but for those who don't have it I'll add that this concerns the whole life of a man, as if mortals were allowed to live regular lives in Aman. Mortals will not age 'faster' (although they will seem to be fleeting things compared to the world around them), but will ultimately, in theory, encounter the problems as described in Morgoth's Ring. In other words (not that you said otherwise): these things don't happen swiftly to a given mortal who simply walks into Aman (arguably unless he is close to death already, perhaps). The overarching context there (Aman And Mortal Men) concerns why Men cannot live as immortals in Aman, but what if one accepts that death will not be withheld there? Frodo, of course, was not born in Aman, and ultimately would also not be allowed to live there as an 'immortal'. The implication is, when it came time for him to die, he could pass similarly as Aragorn did. Author's notes on the Commentary, note 4 (Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth) Quote:
Again, did Tolkien really mean 'all' Elves as in all Elves to Tol Eressea here? Or is he (perhaps once again) just speaking generally in this description. Last edited by Galin : 01-18-2011 at 12:11 PM. |
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01-18-2011, 04:32 PM | #10 | |
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From reading what Tolkien wrote about it, I have the notion that the returning Noldor were first assigned to Tol Eressëa. By that, I mean they lived there first in the general region of Aman, the Uttermost West. I don’t think it means that they were restricted from living elsewhere, at least, not in the long run; but they seem first to have dwelled there. The sadness reflected in “The Cottage of Lost Play” suggests to me that some Elves were restricted to living in Tol Eressëa, at least for a time. As I mentioned before, their sojourn there seems purgatorial. That might reflect only the deep sadness of the Elves as time passes. (As I recall, these stories were recited to one Ǽlfwine, a mortal visiting the Cottage, and I believe “Ǽlfwine” is the Anglo-Saxon equivalent of Elendil.) Before the Akallabêth, Elves sailed regularly from Avallónë on the east coast of Tol Eressëa to ports in western Númenor. (Previous mention) There’s nothing I’m aware of that says some Elves were restricted from mingling with the Númenóreans while others were free to come and go: I don’t think it was a prison. For someone like Elrond, who left Middle-earth only reluctantly, a home in Tol Eressëa would seem only natural. For Galadriel, who long lived under the Ban in Middle-earth (I know, I know, she wasn’t under a ban in the final two or three years of Tolkien’s lifetime of writing; but she was when Lord of the Rings and Road Goes Ever On were published and for the 25 or 30 years before those last 2 or 3), I don’t know: her desire would surely be to return to Eldamar and her old home. Celeborn left Middle-earth with even greater reluctance than Elrond – I cannot see him living far from the shoreline in Eldamar, and if possible, facing the east coast of Tol Eressëa. Something else to think about: was the old Noldorin capital Túna deserted by the end of the Third Age? I think I remember reading something about that. And what about Avallónë? There was no longer anyplace to go from Avallónë except around the island: Elves could no longer return to visit Men. Surely the most important communities would be westward-facing, toward the interior of the Bay of Eldamar, unless, as Saruman jibed, the Elves dwelt in sadness in Avallónë, longing for their old homes across the Straight Road and wide Sea. |
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01-18-2011, 05:02 PM | #11 |
AngAdan
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I believe that Tiron upon Tuna was abandoned at the end of the 2nd age, because of the Ar-Pharazon's invasion. The Elves there fled further into Aman to shelter with the Vanyar, and that the city was then largely destroyed by the avalanches which crushed Ar-Pharzon's vanguard in the pass.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
01-19-2011, 11:45 AM | #12 | |||||
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Thus we have a very different conception here, somewhat 'equivalent' to the Elves that defeated Melkor in the War of Wrath being banned from Valinor. I say somewhat 'equivalent' here but even this is pushing things, as the story found in the Lost Tales is very different in many points compared to later conceptions. It certainly pre-dates the conception I quoted from the Silmarillion of the 1930s (at least), where even the Noldor may return to Valinor. In the very early story Eriol is the mortal who visits Tol Eressea to learn their tales and so on, and he is a Man from the 'ancient land' of the English, because here Tol Eressea will become England itself. Still early on (but later than this conception), we find Elfwine in the role of Eriol, and he becomes an Anglo-Saxon mariner from England -- as later Tol Eressea does not become England itself. Quote:
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In the Drowning of Anadûnê -- the Mannish version of this tale -- Aman itself is destroyed along with Numenor, at least from the point of view of the Numenoreans anyway. Akallabêth is arguably a 'mixed' account (Elvish and Mannish) and we see that Aman was not destroyed, if removed. In my opinion we don't have a fully Elvish account, at least not in any updated form that is. Based on the Akallabêth account, given the arguable proximity of the mortals and what is noted to have happened, it seems natural enough that Tirion could not easily withstand such upheavals and devestation. But this seems a bit 'scientific' whereas the act itself is arguably one of holy power, and I'm still not wholly convinced that Tirion upon Tuna need be one of the hills here. Unless there is more to this in any case? |
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01-19-2011, 12:12 PM | #13 |
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By the way the above is a very simplified version of the Eriol/Elfwine matter. It's difficult to show its real complexity in brief.
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01-19-2011, 01:50 PM | #14 | ||||||||
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01-19-2011, 04:39 PM | #15 | ||
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Last edited by Galin : 01-19-2011 at 04:45 PM. |
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01-20-2011, 04:36 PM | #16 | |
AngAdan
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
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01-21-2011, 12:43 AM | #17 | |
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However lack of mention does not prove Tirion survived of course. In my opinion, in the 1960s Tolkien 'ratified' The Drowning of Anadune (DA) not only as an alternate to the Akallabeth tradition but as part of a triple tradition: Elvish, Mannish, and Mixed (noting Tolkien's note published in Sauron Defeated). DA appears to be a Mannish tradition and is meant to confuse certain things, but how did any Men (who lived) truly know what happened in Aman after Ar-Pharazon arrived? According to DA no Men could tell the tale of their fate, and among the '... Nimri only was word preserved of the things that were; of whom the wisest in lore of old have learned this tale.' Something similar was said in Akallabeth actually (although edited out by Christopher Tolkien), so one can hardly claim that the Mannish account is more accurate regarding the following description because it ultimately hails from an Eldarin source. Anyway, in my opinion this version is either briefer, or maybe relates a swifter reaction from the Powers and Eru: '... but pride was his master, and at last he left his ship and strode upon the shore. Then Aman called upon Eru...' Here there seems to be no encampment about Tirion or anywhere, and no falling hills in subsequent description (unless I missed something). Again, brevity could explain the difference, but would someone reading this version necessarily think Tirion was destroyed? Not from that much maybe, but yet Aman itself is destroyed! in this account. I think the traditions are certainly meant to include contradiction and confusion, but one wonders what the Eldar really meant by 'destroyed' here (if interpreted correctly) if Gandalf, for instance, is going to sail to some kind of home in the Third Age. I don't know, all that said, for me I would still like to see something more definitive that Tirion was destroyed at this point. Last edited by Galin : 01-21-2011 at 07:15 AM. |
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01-21-2011, 01:11 AM | #18 | |
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Technically though - I don't think there WERE any temples to Eru. And I don't think many people left on the island (after filling up the 9 ships, and also all the Faithful who had already emigrated to Middle Earth) who would call out to Eru. Most were cursing him and despising him.
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01-21-2011, 03:06 AM | #19 |
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M*riel Zimraphel, daughter of Tar-Palant*r forcibly married to her first cousin Ar-Pharazôn to justify his usurpation of her throne, tried to climb to the Hallows on Meneltarma, the only recognized place of worship anywhere on Númenor until Sauron built his temple for human sacrifice in Armenelos. She was caught by the wave that overwhelmed the mountain before she reached its summit. (How anyone would know this is unclear: perhaps Elendil or someone else looked back in a palant*r…)
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01-21-2011, 04:30 AM | #20 |
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Reckon she had done something bad? Lest they would have taken her with them, or she would have searched for the ships...?
Don't know, just guessing.
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