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01-14-2006, 08:42 AM | #1 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Tolkien's Changing Concept of the Nazgul and the Istari
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Was a Nazgul, even their Chief, as great as a Balrog? And wasn't Gandalf the White now more powerful than Gandalf the Grey had been?
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01-14-2006, 08:56 AM | #2 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Tolkien had an earlier conception of the Witch King, where his nature and identity were no mystery. In LOTR drafts he was called "the Wizard King" and was originally the most powerful WIZARD of the same order as Gandalf. Quote:
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Of course, when Tolkien made up his mind about the nature of Wizards, and decided they came to ME around TA 1000, it became impossible for the WK to be one of them, because, how then "the 9 rings were given to men?" How could a Maia become a wraith? So, the "Wizard King" was changed to the "Witch-King" throughout the text, and a few sentences when Gandalf reveals his nature (see quotes above) were removed. But that was all. Nothing was changed in the scene of the WK's death - so his body disappears much like Saruman's (and understandably so). Everyone reading LOTR gets a clear impression that Gandalf fears the WK, because he is overmatched. And it made sense in the earlier conception, because the Wizard King was the more powerful WIZARD of the two, or had similar power and strength as Gandalf the White. Also the WK still remains the strongest BY FAR than the other nazgul (though now the reason for it is gone). That is how the Witch-King lost his identity. He is still called "King and Sorcerer of old", but Tolkien never came up with a new story for him, that had to explain why he was so very powerful. In a way it is now a plothole of the LOTR. |
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01-14-2006, 09:02 AM | #3 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Interesting... and I don't have those HoME books. Would you mind if I copy that into a new thread?
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01-14-2006, 09:27 AM | #4 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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By all means, Val, if you feel it doesn't really belong to the chapter discussion.
There are several LOTR plotholes caused by the perpetual development of Tolkien's conceptions. HOME Books give answers to many debatable things in the LOTR - for example Glorfindel's prophecy and whether it applied to Gandalf or not. Also, perhaps to the Gothmog question. |
01-14-2006, 02:25 PM | #5 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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In TTT Aragorn mentions that Gandalf the White was indeed more powerful than all of the nine.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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01-14-2006, 04:07 PM | #6 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Aragorn tries to be confident, but old Gandalf is not so sure of himself:
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But the first-time reader, who has not read the Appendices before the story and has never heard of the Maiar, reading the above, feels apprehensive for Gandalf. And, may be, that was the author's intention. |
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01-14-2006, 05:27 PM | #7 |
AngAdan
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Keep in mind that the the 5 Maiar incarnated into the Istari were intentionally done so in a maaner that limted somewhat the power they could bring into their incanated form. Gandalf has some digiculty even remebering mcuh of his existance prior to being made an Istari.
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01-16-2006, 08:13 PM | #8 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I just changed the title of this thread to cover Tolkien's changing concept of the Nazgul (severally) AND the Istari.
Since I don't have those HoME books in question, someone please tell me: Was Saruman in the story in that earlier draft where Gandalf and the Nazgul had a common origin as Wizards of Numenor? If not - was the "Wizard-King" sort of divided into two separate people - the Witch-King and Saruman?
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01-17-2006, 11:03 AM | #9 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Initially, Gandalf was late to come to the Shire because he was assailed at the Tower Hills by the Nine Nazgul who sat motionless on their horses guarding him. The reminder of that very early story is Frodo's dream of the tower and the smell of the Sea in LOTR: Quote:
So, Saruman always existed separate from the Wizard King, the mightiest of the wizards, who turned to the Enemy very long ago. First the wizards were Men of a "noble profession" wielding sorcery and having a very long life. Gandalf and the Wizard King were from Numenor, as for the others, it was not said that they were Numenoreans, though perhaps ALL the wizards were supposed to come from there. See this quote from the LOTR ( also present in early drafts): Quote:
See this part of the LOTR prologue: Quote:
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Four were identified, only one missing: Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White, Radagast the Brown + initially the Wizard King. I suppose his colour was Black, as the draft sentence: "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still" might have initially referred to him. |
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01-18-2006, 09:34 PM | #10 |
Dreamweaver
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personally, i think that Gandalf was more powerful than the Witch King.
contrary to the image of fearing him we recieve from the films, or Tolkien's drafts, in the final story, Gandalf says to Gimli that he[Gimli] could not meet anyone more powerful than him[Gandalf] once he was white, unless you were taken to the feet of Sauron alive. this, coupled with the point that while Grey, Gandalf could defeat a fallen Maia, he could make short work of a fallen MAN once he is White. it is my belief that the only reason Gandalf did not confront the Witch King is because Pippin came to him to save Faramir, so the chance was stolen from him and the prophecy was fulfilled, not because he fled. he also says something along the lines of him being able to save theoden if he hadn't left. again, this is all book, the movies had him weaker and afraid...PJ!
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Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih... |
01-19-2006, 03:20 AM | #11 | ||
Elf Lord
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As for Wizards, I don't think they were numerous and common, but those, who dwelt at that time, had been well known and accounted for a quite some time.They had been frequent Gondor's visitiors :"In former days the members of my order had been well received there, but Saruman most of all “ (FOTR. Book II) , said Gandalf about other wizards visiting the White city . They were attending meetings of the White Council and their favorite pastime was an antique -hunting …”it was after the White Counsil in the South (Where? Gondor?) that I first began to give serious thought to Bilbo’s ring. There was much talk of rings at the Council: even wizards have much to learn as long as they live.” (HOME.Treason of Isengard” The 4th phase) “Some (rings) no more than toys, and not difficult to contrive if you go in for such things” (HOME.Treason of Isengard” The 4th phase)…this quote is suggesting that other wizards(not only Saruman) were looking for the rings. Quote:
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01-19-2006, 12:24 PM | #12 | |
Elf Lord
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Those are excellent contributions, Gordis, amongst the most interesting I've seen posted on the Moot.
I rather like the idea of the Wizard King. Why would a Maia not be able to also be a ringwraith? Was not Sauron, a Maia, the original Ringwraith? Quote:
- When the Rings is found, Gandalf implies that there may be lots and lots of rings, not a fixed number. - In Shadow of the Past, he expresses a "professional interest" - We have numerous references to "sorcery" going on, from Angmar to Umbar. |
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01-19-2006, 02:37 PM | #13 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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great info gordis... i've read most of it but never heard it put together so well
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01-19-2006, 08:10 PM | #14 | ||
Elven Warrior
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01-19-2006, 09:38 PM | #15 |
Dreamweaver
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if you read the hobbit [which counts as fact here as it is in the same world with shared characters] it says that there are many magic rings of varying power, the 3, 7, 9, and 1 are only those made by or under the influence of sauron.
also, gandalf says in the FotR outside moria's door that he once knew every spell in every tongue...soooo...magic not just to maiar...
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Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih... |
01-20-2006, 12:26 PM | #16 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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The seven and the nine were not made under Saurons power IIRC, they only use the skill that he taught them
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
01-20-2006, 12:27 PM | #17 | ||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks for the kind words about these notes.
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My Nazgul autonomy theory and all your theories are based on the published LOTR text and other contemporary and later writings treated as one would treat a HISTORICAL SOURCE. I LOVE this approach, but it is simply not applicable to the drafts, later re-written by the author. Quote:
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But I agree that Gandalf didn't run away, instead he was prepared to follow the Witch-King onto the field, once the WK withdrew from the gate to deal with Theoden. Actually Gandalf the White Maia should have been rather confident before the battle with the Witch-King. And there is another aspect of the problem: THE PROPHESY ("not by the hand of man shall he fall "). Now, in the published LOTR, the prophesy DOESN'T EXCLUDE Gandalf. He is NO MAN, he is a Maia. So he is ELIGIBLE to kill the WK . More reasons to be confident. In the drafts, where Wizards were MEN, Gandalf was NOT ELIGIBLE. That's why he repeated the prophesy to Denethor with such apprehension. If the prophesy were true, there was no way he could kill the Wizard King - another reason to be uncertain of himself and apprehensive. And do you know that there were earlier versions of the prophesy? Please note that neither of the older versions made Gandalf eligible! The earliest: Quote:
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And the Wizard King says to Gandalf at the Gate "This is my hour of victory!" (it remained in LOTR as "This is my hour.") By these words he HIMSELF puts the prophesy in motion. Pity that this dramatic touch was lost in the final text. |
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01-20-2006, 12:40 PM | #18 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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That is interesting about Eowyn. It may suggest that the death of Theoden was sue to happen earlier in the battle, for it is very unlikely that Eowyn would not have killed anyone during the charge or the charge uponm the Mûmakil.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
01-20-2006, 05:44 PM | #19 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Anyway, how can anyone but a newborn baby claim that he killed no living thing? You squash a mosquito, you go hunting, you wring the neck of a chicken to prepare a stew and there you are. No wonder Tolkien has edited it. |
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01-20-2006, 06:55 PM | #20 | ||
Dreamweaver
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yes, have you seen the one ring to rule them all cartoons? tell me about it... Quote:
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Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih... Last edited by durinsbane2244 : 01-20-2006 at 06:56 PM. |
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