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01-13-2006, 10:28 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Pippin's stone and the attack at the Chamber of Marzabul
In Moria, Pippin lets go of the stone in the dry well at the beginning of the night spent before the three way fork. Drums in the dark are heard. Yet the attack on the Fellowhip happens 2 (or 3?) days later in the Chamber of Marzabul.
Why was the Fellowhsip not attacked before? And how did the orcs/troll/balrog know that the Fellowship was in the Chamber of Marzabul? Indeed the Fellowship could have taken any of the three paths at the fork and be somewhere totally different on their 2nd (or 3rd?) day since the stone. |
01-14-2006, 07:05 AM | #2 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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That may be exactly why the Fellowship wasn't attacked earlier, if you ask me. The orcs were alerted to another presence in their home through the falling stone but Moria is far too huge to be inspected at once.
And since that the Fellowship tracked for days through Moria (even after their rather 'loud' entrance through the gate) without encountering even clues of recent orc presense, that would indicate that the orcs restricted them to the lower levels and were perhaps not completely familiar with the higher halls and areas. I also suspect they wanted to do a 'muster of Moria' themselves before going after the intruders. Anyone entering Moria at this point was either a total loon or someone very powerful. I suppose they didn't want to take any chances.
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01-14-2006, 12:35 PM | #3 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Well said. Indeed, the stone alerted the evil, that someone had intruded.
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01-14-2006, 07:45 PM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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Yet, you would think that in an abandoned mine the falling of a stone is a quite frequent event
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01-14-2006, 08:00 PM | #5 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Funny thing, that was my first thought too. But perhaps not on that spot or not with an old waterhole? Or maybe the orcs did notice something of the fight at the gate with the Watcher in the Water and were already put on edge for anything? Plenty of room for speculation.
In any case, we'd have been cheated out of a few very impressive scenes if the orcs hadn't decided to look into matters after the one fallen stone.
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01-14-2006, 10:15 PM | #6 | |
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01-14-2006, 10:17 PM | #7 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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You know, I just had a thought. Perhaps the goblins were on edge because the Balrog sensed Gandalf's presence? After all they were both Maiar.
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
01-15-2006, 12:05 AM | #8 | |
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01-15-2006, 06:12 AM | #9 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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In my eyes the Istari and the Balrogs are not exactly Maiar anymore. The Istari were bound to flesh and the Balrog would be so intertwined with fire that I reckon they would no longer be your basic Maiar, or have the same skills as the Maiar in the West. Quote:
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But personally I'd reckon that orcs were interested in whoever passed through the mines they had taken. If only to have a little bit of 'sport' in disposing of them.
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01-15-2006, 08:38 AM | #10 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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What about Gollum. He had been in Moria for acouple of months, the goblins, or at least the Balrog probably knew of his presence, so it wouldn't surprise me if Gollum lead them to the Fellowship.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
01-15-2006, 09:25 AM | #11 | |
Elven Warrior
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Still when he is putting the locking spell on the other side of the Chamber of Marzabul and the Balrog breaks the spell, Gandalf says something like "I have met my match, but I don't know what it is" |
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01-15-2006, 09:33 AM | #12 | |
Elven Warrior
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01-15-2006, 09:34 AM | #13 | |
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01-15-2006, 10:32 AM | #14 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I'm not saying he would mingle with them, of course not, he hated them. But they may have known of his presence in Moria, and thus he may have led them to the Fellowship.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
01-15-2006, 04:11 PM | #15 | |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
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01-15-2006, 04:28 PM | #16 | |
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So do all who see such times, but that is not for us to decide, all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us Gandalf And what happened to the rest of your party, killed, eaten, gone home? Beorn, The Hobbit Dark and difficult Times lie ahead Harry, soon we must all face a choice, a choice between what is right and what is easy! Dumbledore Neo Are you listening to Me? Or are you too busy looking at the Woman in the Red Dress? Morpheus, The Matrix |
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01-15-2006, 06:32 PM | #17 | ||||||
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Haldir says "We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many days ago." What is "many days", especially from the POV of a dweller of a timeless realm, where a month seems a few days? It is likely Mordor orcs were sent to Moria to search for Gollum, sometime in summer, more than half a year ago. Unless it was much earlier, who can tell with those elves? Quote:
Gandalf: Quote:
Moreover, look at the huge uruk's description: Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 01-15-2006 at 06:34 PM. |
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01-16-2006, 12:56 PM | #18 | |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
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01-19-2006, 01:26 PM | #19 | |
Elven Warrior
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01-19-2006, 01:32 PM | #20 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I think they would have done. Orcs are quite easily scared, so when someone that powerful tells you them to do something they usually do it. Fo example in TH, Beorn scares to goblin to tell him what he knows, he does. I think this is the same principle.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |