01-14-2004, 12:31 PM | #1 |
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Who attacks the Hobbit rooms?
My apologies if this has been brought up before but:
I just finished re-reading the chapter Strider and A Knife in the Dark and something has occurred to me that I hadn’t thought of before. Do the wraiths actually trash the hobbit’s room, or do the Breelander spies do it? I had always assumed it was the wraiths but: “What will happen” asked Merry “will they attack the Inn?” “No, I think not” said Strider. “They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people – not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues Eriador still lie before us. But there power is in terror, and some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferney, and some of the strangers, and maybe the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at Westgate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.” It seems odd to me that Tolkien would put these words into Strider’s mouth if he is going to have the Wraiths attack the Inn that night. It seems as though he is suggesting that the some of the villagers will do it for them; chasing the horses off, and forcing open the window. If it were some of the villagers, it would explain why the wrong room is attacked (although the other wraiths are attacking Fatty so I’m not sure how far this line of reasoning goes toward proving anything). Tolkien never says who actually attacked the room that night, (and unlike the Bakshi and Jackson films no one hears anything either) but he does say that the squint-eyed southerner was up to no good, and he has disappeared. So who attacked the room? And if it was the wraiths; why is Tolkien introducing Strider to the reader by giving the hobbits information that turns out to be completely wrong. The more I think about it the more it seems to me that the wraiths snuck into Bree through the back gate and are lurking in the shadows getting information and driving the villagers to do all of the work that is in the open either by paying them or scaring the crap out of them. Any thoughts? Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 01-14-2004 at 01:55 PM. |
01-14-2004, 12:41 PM | #2 |
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I had always thought it was the Black Riders too. But I'm sure I read somewhere (maybe in one of his letters) where JRRT said it was not them... that it was indeed some of their local 'help'... hmmm, maybe one or more were present though - there was some shrieking going on when it turned out to be a ruse, right? Or was that only in the movie and not the book? (EDIT: ol' squintyeye edited his post to say it wasn't in the books after I had this posted, btw ) (ALSO EDIT: At least Strider certainly advised the right thing when he had them not sleep in their own beds... )
Similarly, another thread is discussing the figure in Sam's vision who speaks - and the 'wheel of fire' - Frodo with some 'power enhancement' of the Ring, right? Again, it seems I read something odd on this... like was that actually Eru interposing? If so, I don't know how you can see it in the story... Last edited by Valandil : 01-14-2004 at 01:47 PM. |
01-14-2004, 01:58 PM | #3 | ||
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Hasn't this thread been done before? (Someone who was in it - what was the outcome?)
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01-14-2004, 01:59 PM | #4 |
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We debated this at length at SF-Fandom. Recall that Aragorn said that Bill Ferny was just increasing his profits on the deal by selling them Bill the Pony, indicating that he got paid off and that it was he and the Southron spy that did the dirty work. Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room, locate lumps on beds designed to look like sleeping Hobbits to earthly eyes, and tear them up.
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01-14-2004, 02:07 PM | #5 | ||
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Are you saying the Nazgul didn't try to stab them in their beds at all? Or, just that they didn't ransack the rooms.
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01-14-2004, 02:58 PM | #6 |
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good point squinteyedsoutherner... i never really thought on it, but it makes perfect sense that the ringwraiths would prefer to work through others if they could
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01-14-2004, 02:59 PM | #7 |
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I am saying that Bill Ferny and the Southerner tore up the bolsters and ransacked the room. Whether one or more of the Nazgûl were with them is a moot point (sorry), but I am inclined to think that there was. They would not trust such rascals with the Ring, assuming that they took it from Frodo, which of course they didn't.
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01-14-2004, 03:25 PM | #8 | |
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01-14-2004, 04:39 PM | #9 | |
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01-14-2004, 04:43 PM | #10 | |||
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But they never actually attacked the Prancing Pony though.
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I feel if the Black Riders can manage to attack them on Weathertop at night - they can manage to attack them in a hotel room too. Also - there seems to be no argument that the Black Riders are the ones who attack Crickhollow - so again - why wouldn't they be able to attack Frodo's room in the Prancing Pony? [edit] I disagree that the information that Aragorn gave them is completely wrong. I think the way people have interpreted Merry's question and Strider's words are wrong.
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01-14-2004, 04:45 PM | #11 |
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And of course, there's the scenario of one of the Nazgûls getting slain. I don't think they (or Sauron) would risk having to fight the Bree-lenders (even if the risk for the Bree-lenders to fight was very small) when they could send others to do it.
There may be something about this in UT, but it's a long time since I last read in it so I can't remember...
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01-14-2004, 05:17 PM | #12 | |
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Don't forget the hobbits room was on the ground level...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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01-14-2004, 05:20 PM | #13 | |
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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01-14-2004, 06:21 PM | #14 |
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If JRR has said in his letters that it wasn't them, then I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Can't recall him ever saying that, though.
I /do/ take Aragorn's speculation at face value- he certainly knew his lore when it came to evil creatures. The Nazgul were not the type of force that would attack openly and obviously in a populatd area, but they were certainly not agents of stealth that would sneak in to attack someone. No, it was very likely some of the local humans that they had intimidated or corrupted. The nazgul's tactic is what they do at weathertop- try and catch their prey alone, far from help, and descend on them for the kill in the dead of night.
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01-14-2004, 06:56 PM | #15 | |
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EDIT - they don't always do things in the open. Also - it's not like they're really afraid of death. Who is going to stop them once they have the ring? Sorry - I also don't think they would have someone else take care of Frodo like that and risk the Ring getting into someone elses hands.
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01-14-2004, 07:23 PM | #16 | |
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01-14-2004, 07:36 PM | #17 | |||
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01-14-2004, 09:01 PM | #18 |
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I agree with JD here, the goal on Weathertop was to command Frodo to reveal himself (which he did) so they could stab him in the heart. Frodo’s courage and attempted stab at them resulted in a deflection of that thrust from his heart to his shoulder. The wraiths left because they felt they had still accomplished their task even though they missed the heart. The goal at that point was to wait for Frodo to turn into a wraith himself and come back to Mordor willingly.
Remember Aragorn is surprised they are not attacking again until he learns of Frodo's wound. Also, I don't think Aragorn plays any role in their departure after the attack, they are in and out before anyone really gets a chance to do anything. By the time Aragorn picks up the fire they're already leaving. Funny the wraiths attack at Crickhollow and in the room (if it was them) both of these events seem to undermine their ability to sense the whereabouts of the ring. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 01-14-2004 at 09:36 PM. |
01-14-2004, 09:13 PM | #19 | ||
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The text strongly inticates that the Witch-King was aiming for a killing blow to the heart. Only Frodo's courage (or foolishness) in charging and attacking caused the blow to miss, saving his life. But even that wound was enough, given the potency of the weapon used, that the Nazgul did not feel the need to essay another attack.
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01-14-2004, 09:21 PM | #20 |
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But, if they were so powerful, why didn't they just kill Frodo and take the Ring? Why all of the sneak-around, they could just take it? When they were horsed, the Nazgûl overwhelmed the Dúnedain at Sarn Ford and killed and ran off many, according to UT. Unhorsed, all they could do was to try to poison/bewitch him. My point is proved in that they couldn't even attack Frodo with the Morgul-knife until he put on the Ring, and they screwed that up by stabbing him in the shoulder instead of the heart. You cannot tell me with a straight face that if they could have killed Aragorn and simply picked up the Ring, they would not have. No, I think the Nazgûl unmounted were quite weak, hence Gandalf's comment that, after the Ford of Bruinen, they had to make their way back to their master as best they could. And, Merry's blade or no, if he were all that powerful, he could have still defended himself. It was Éowyn, not Merry, that killed him.
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