The Riddle of Tom Bombadil

[trolls' bane]

I checked for another thread on this, but all I could find was this thread.

Anyway, it says it all here. Let me know if it doesn't work or it only shows a picture. I was thinking about this some months ago when I read it, and I thought about some of the theories (well, I actually read only the part titled "Tom Bombadil Within Tolkein's Cosmology"). Especially the one: "Was Tom Bombadil Illuvatar Himself?"
Though he said he was here before the dark lord came (something like that), and as the article states Morgoth was the first of the Valar or any of the powers in Arda, or Ea (how do you people put the accent marks and like symbols on specific letters, anyway?), it doesn't mean he was there before Morgoth came the first time, does it? Because if I remember right, in the first chapters of the Silmarillion, at some point he left. Couldn't that mean when he came and ambushed the Valar and Maia on whatever island they lived on in whatever lake, when he cast down the lamps? Or, could it possibly mean when he came back to Middle Earth after his imprisonment in Valinor? The last one I mentioned is least likely (to me) because he seemed more man than elf, and was rather short, while elves are known to be tall.

Comments or theories welcome .

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

The truth is no one will ever know the identity of Tom Bombadil except for J.R.R. Tolkien. There is only one thing I know for sure, and that is Tom Bombadil's concept came from a doll Tolkiens son had, Tolkien used to tell his son night time stories with the Bombadil doll and make silly rhyms like those in The Lord of the Rings. Other information that isn't known for absolute certainty can be that it is said I think that Ilúvatar never came nor sent any of his likenss into Arda. Finally there will be endless questions of Bombadil like who is the Dark Lord he is talking about, was it Sauron or Morgoth? Both Treebeard and Bombadil claim to be the oldest in Middle-Earth so who really is? Also Bombadil cliams to have come before the Eldar and before Atani. So he could not be Elf, Man, or Dwarf. One theory that has never really been discussed is that Tom is a liar. Perhaps Tom is just dilusional! He did not come before and is not oldest. Perhaps!? Yet we must know he must be something on a higher level of Maia, on level with the Vala or higher due to his resistance to the ring. It didn't effect him in any way and not even a Maia of Manwë, Olórin, could resist the ring! So in the end who, or what, is Tom Bombadil? No one but the late great J.R.R. Tolkien will ever know.*

*Note: Oh and Troll's Bane, there are several ways to create the symboled letters. One way is to use the character map in your programs. Go through Programs->Accesories->System Tools->Character Map.(Windows Only) Another way is to cut/copy and past the letters and words fom other places and websites.

[trolls' bane]

Well, you're probably right about us never knowing who or what Tom Bombadil is. I guess I left out the part where Tolkien said that Tom is an enigma and isn't meant to be understood.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

*Note: Oh and Troll's Bane, there are several ways to create the symboled letters. One way is to use the character map in your programs. Go through Programs->Accesories->System Tools->Character Map.(Windows Only) Another way is to cut/copy and past the letters and words fom other places and websites.

Thanks. I thought the answer would include microsoft word. That's how I do it, but it doesn't always paste right. I'll try that later: I'm not on my computer.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

One theory that has never really been discussed is that Tom is a liar.

LOL! Excellent. I think this theory is the best fit with the evidence and the simplest explanation for Tom I have ever read. By the principle of Occam's Razor, it must therefore be true

[trolls' bane]

I agree!
Uh, Gaffer. While reaching for the post reply button, I accidentally hit the report bad post. I'll tell em if they PM you! Sorry.

[Michael Martinez]

Treebeard never claimed to be the oldest living thing. Gandalf made that assertion:

'Ah! now you are asking much,' said Gandalf. 'The little that I know of his long slow story would make a tale for which we have no time now. Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth....
From "The White Rider" in The Two Towers

Gandalf is hardly a source of infallible information. After all, he was betrayed by Saruman and did not know there was a Balrog in Moria. He also points to limits on his knowledge in other cases.

People make too much of Gandalf's remark. For example, Aragorn says:

Then Aragorn cried: ‘Yé! utúvienyes! I have found it! Lo! here is a scion of the Eldest of Trees! But how comes it here? For it is not itself yet seven years old.’
From "The Steward and the King" in The Return of the King

Now, this is absolute balderdash. Anyone who has read The Silmarillion knows there were other trees before the Two Trees, even in Valinor. Are we to accept without question that no other trees came before Telperion and Laurelin, or that no other trees from their time were still living? Why?

Tolkien's characters employ the word "eldest" in many different ways. The narrative does as well (and nowhere in the narrative will you see any reference to either Treebeard or Bombadil as being older than the other or everything else).

It is not necessary to reconcile the two claims of age because that is not the only apparent conflict in the story. For example, the Prologue concludes with:

...It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.

What? Did Treebeard die before Celeborn left Middle-earth? What about Bombadil? Are we to conclude from Gandalf's words and this assertion in the Prologue (from the narrative voice of the author himself) that Bombadil was not a living thing?

Gandalf was a living thing -- he died, and something must first live before it can die. And yet, he was more ancient than either Bombadil or Treebeard. So, should he not have included himself in the category of living things?

It is one to ask who and what Bombadil was but quite another to support the contention that there is any sort of contradiction between Gandalf's remarks about Treebeard and Bombadil's claims regarding himself. Neither Bombadil nor Gandalf is portrayed as all-knowing.

[trolls' bane]

Wow. I think I still underestimate Entmoot. Every thread I start expecting just a few replies with almost no content always seem to end up with really smart posts!

[BeardofPants]

Yeah, Michael ought to come with a warning, "Thread-killer".

[SneakyRat]

Siggy, you posted this? Post something like this on our board and I'll let you make me a moderator rather than an admin . I never read that, so I will later at home.
The band at this party is not his favorite, so I'll hand the computer to TB (we're at a wildbunch party, and we're both using his computer).

[trolls' bane]

Well, who do you think posted it, sneak . Btw, you can continue to call me siggy. I'll post it in the intro thread the reason and who you are talking about.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Gandalf was a living thing -- he died, and something must first live before it can die. And yet, he was more ancient than either Bombadil or Treebeard. So, should he not have included himself in the category of living things?

I think there may be some distinction about whether an Ainur which takes a coporeal form is a "living thing". Is an Ainur in only spirit form a "Living thing". What about when they take a visable but not corporeal "rainiment".
But most certainly, Orloin in his Mithrandir'Gandalf form is far from omniscient. We even have his would when returned in his White form about having rmember much that he had forggoten, and forgotten much that he had known.

[Haradrim]

Also when yiou say oldest from when are you talking. First created. First in Middle Earth? or what. That has to be answered before the oldest title can be given away. I always thought Bombadil was like the spirit of Middle Earth. Maybe nto even a cration of Eru but a creation of ME itself. But whatever.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Since the Ainur spirits existed from outside/before the creation of EA and thus the universes time can they be said to have an age or begining with in the cotext of EA? I woul think all the Ainur would be considerered ageless. Of course, we can not be sure that Bombadil is in origin and Ainur, but Olorin/Gandalf is.

[Haradrim]

whats EA?

[trolls' bane]

Ea, the World that Is. You ever read the sil? Well, not so much the Cil, but Ainulindale?

[Haradrim]

nope I just started it

[trolls' bane]

Oh. Well then, you'll read it in a few minutes if you were reading right now.

[Lefty Scaevola]

EA = the universe
Arda = the Earth in the published work, but in the unfinished rewrite of the Sil, was going to = the Solar System.

[Attalus]

I never think about Tom. JRRT said he was meant to be an enigma, and that is what he is to me.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

I think there may be some distinction about whether an Ainur which takes a coporeal form is a "living thing". Is an Ainur in only spirit form a "Living thing". What about when they take a visable but not corporeal "rainiment".

A "raiment" IS a physical, corporeal form.

However, given that Ulmo appeared to Tuor as a giant made of seawater, the question of whether he could have been slain in that physical form is an interesting (and unanswerable) one.

I think that, if Ulmo's watery raiment could have been dispersed against his will, then perhaps he would have died.

Death only applies to the physical body. Hence, if a Vala or Maia assumes the body of an Elf and that body is destroyed, then the Vala/Maia dies.