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06-24-2004, 06:30 PM | #1 | |
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The Power of Words - (based on thoughts while reading "21 Reasons why Republicans ...
While reading thru those 21 "Reasons", it made me think about the power of words, and the power held by those that choose the words we see in the media. For example, from the list:
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I like when articles use "pro-life" instead of "anti-abortion" because I think it's more fair. If abortion did NOT take a life (in the opinion of the pro-lifers), then the pro-lifers would not object. I think it's only fair to use "pro-life" if the other side will be represented by "pro-choice". IOW, be fair and take the POV from each group; NOT the POV of both groups from only one group's POV, if that makes sense. For example - I think most pro-lifers think a more accurate label for those who are typically called "pro-choice" would be (and I'm trying to be considerate here) something like "those willing to take the life of unborn babies for various reasons that they think valid". Now the pro-choice people would obviously object to this. And the pro-life people also object to the labels that pro-choice people call them. So I think the fairest thing to do in these types of discussions is to allow the groups in question to choose what they prefer to be called, instead of allowing one side to choose BOTH labels. I'm willing to let the pro-choicers use that term, because that's the important issue for them, altho I REALLY strongly disagree that that's the important point. IOW, to me, it's just as much a choice to kill an adult as it is a choice to kill a baby in the womb, yet the pro-choicers don't advocate choice when it comes to killing those outside of the womb. Yet I think that they should be allowed to be referred to as "pro-choice", just as I should be allowed to be referred to as "pro-life". Thoughts, anyone? (this is a volatile subject; please keep it considerate! )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-24-2004 at 06:33 PM. |
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06-24-2004, 06:42 PM | #2 |
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Unfortunately, the term coming into use in the mainstream media is 'anti-choice'. I recently cancelled Newsweek over it (and yes, I wrote them a nice note and told them about it) - and it's cropping up all the time. It seems patently unfair to me for the media to use for one side of an issue the term they would prefer ('pro-choice') while labeling the OTHER side of an issue what their opponents would call them ('anti-choice') instead of that other side's own preference ('pro-life').
You who ARE pro-choice... how would you feel if the media framed the sides as: 'pro-life' and 'anti-life'? Probably doesn't sound very appealing, does it? That's what those of us who are pro-life are faced with.
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06-24-2004, 06:45 PM | #3 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-24-2004, 08:18 PM | #4 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Also - regarding the "21 reasons why Republicans..." thread that Ben closed. I agree with Valadil. It was another example of people able to take a swipe at others and would have simply have started arguments. I was not going to let those one sided comments go - regardless of whether people thought they were funny. When someone posted the "What Makes an Ugly American" list in Khamul's trip thread - like Valadil with the Replublican list - I wanted to post an opposing list - but I refrained. The fact that people see nothing wrong starting threads or posting for the sole purpose of attacking versus discussing is EXACTLY what has been wrong with this board lately.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-24-2004 at 08:23 PM. |
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06-24-2004, 08:23 PM | #5 | |
Retired Ent
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But aren't pro-lifers working to make abortion illegal, making them anti-abortion? If someone is against abortion in all or almost all scenarios, that makes him anti-abortion. To me, "anti-abortion" seems like an objective description. "Pro-life" puts a positive spin on the agenda (who could be "against life"?), while "anti-abortion" is neutral.
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For this reason, "pro-life" is more of a subjective term. To its advocates, the embryo is a person, but I haven't seen conclusive scientific proof of this. On the other hand, these activists are not "pro-life" when it comes to the woman or even a child once it is born and possibly neglected. Similarly, "anti-life" would not apply to pro-choice advocates because all of the focus is on the cells in the uterus, which may or may not be a human life. Such advocates are fiercely supportive of the woman and her life, however. In some cases, the woman's life endangered by the pregnancy. I know that some pro-lifers make an exception for this, but there was no such exception in the 2000 Republican platform. If an abortion would be the only thing preventing a woman from dying and certain activists oppose it, who's pro-life? I can understand why those on this side would object to "anti-choice," as this has a negative connotation. I would personally argue that "anti-choice" is actually the most accurate description. Using such a term doesn't require any definitive answer on when personhood begins and who/what qualifies as a person. Such advocates are "anti-abortion" but so are pro-choicers. Abortion should only be used if all other options are exhausted. The prolifers are working to get abortion criminalized, which would deprive women of a choice about their bodies. Thus "anti-choice" fits. "Pro-abortion" doesn't work for pro-choicers because that would imply that those activists always prefer an abortion to childbirth. This isn't accurate. No one feels that abortion is a pleasant procedure; they merely feel it should be an option available to women.
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06-24-2004, 08:33 PM | #6 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-24-2004 at 08:37 PM. |
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06-24-2004, 08:36 PM | #7 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*is intensely irritated that she has to finish dinner and can't discuss the rest of the post!*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-24-2004, 08:37 PM | #8 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I think when the mother's life is in danger - there has to be a choice made. Just like people always make in life and death situations. Doctors, rescue workers, etc - always have to make choices on who lives and who dies when they can not save both. I don't see how if the woman's life is in danger is a real issue. You save the most viable person - as is mostly always the case for any other situation. I know you are aware too that not all Republicans are "anti-abortion". Christie Whitman was pro-choice. There are gray areas in the abortion debate. I have always been in between - even while people have told me that one can not be in the middle on the issue. I for one - don't think in the 21st century that people should be using it as a form of birth control. I do not think that it should be a government funded procedure, nor do I think it should be covered by insurance. Providing birth control is one thing - covering abortions is another. I do not think that minors should be allowed to get an abortion without the okay from their parents - unless there are EXTREME circumstances. In this aspect I agree with New Jersey's law regarding abortion.
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06-24-2004, 08:37 PM | #9 |
The Intermittent One
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all the pro-life or anti-choice stuff is nonsense. the only arguement in this case is whether you are pro- or anti-abortion.
over here there are no laws against abortion, excepting that after a certain point you cannot perform abortive surgery except in any emergency. nobody ask me what the cut-off point is, i can't for the life of me remember. |
06-24-2004, 08:41 PM | #10 | |
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06-24-2004, 08:45 PM | #11 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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As for using "anti-", you're right it isn't always bad I guess - but generally it is only used for purposes of discrediting a side you disagree with.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-24-2004 at 08:54 PM. |
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06-24-2004, 09:15 PM | #12 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-24-2004, 10:49 PM | #13 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I just found the book - I'll see if I can find a short quote a bit later, altho it's off-topic. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-24-2004 at 10:55 PM. |
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06-24-2004, 11:01 PM | #14 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(OK, I found it in chpt 18, The Ugly American and the Ugly Sarkhanese - the term specifically refers to Homer Atkins, who is physically ugly, but a great, great guy. What a great chapter! The way he gives such great respect to the people that live there, and works with what they have, NOT what could be imported; and what they actually need, NOT what imagined needs could be made and then filled by importing foreign products, is a wonderful example of how to do things right, IMO.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-24-2004 at 11:07 PM. |
06-24-2004, 11:05 PM | #15 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hey, Ben changed my thread title!
Actually, Ben, I didn't mean it to be SPECIFIC to the abortion terms, but rather to the whole idea of terms used in topics under debate, and who sets them, and things like that. I just started with the abortion terms, because of those 21 items, that was the one that upset me the most. But I can't think of a better title off the top of my head.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-24-2004, 11:16 PM | #16 | |
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What a coincidence! This article came in the latest version of "Touchstone."
I hope this isn't another list attacking one side or the other jd, but I'm afraid you might consider it that... Quote:
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. Last edited by Mercutio : 06-24-2004 at 11:18 PM. |
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06-25-2004, 12:06 AM | #17 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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The term "ugly American" is a generalised term used by people who want to mock and condemn a group of people who most likely they had no interaction with. The term has been bandied around here as if it doesn't matter at all and as if it is completely acceptable. This is another example of the power of words - if something is said enough from the outside - those who it is directed against start to believe it as fact. "Ugly American" is used to indicate contempt for a whole group of people - as if they themselves are superior and are above all that. As if we Americans have a monoploy on it all. Some Americans have come to believe that the "ugly American" title only fits Americans and that everything outside America and American culture is just so perfect.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-25-2004 at 12:19 AM. |
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06-25-2004, 12:27 AM | #18 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think everyone should read the book "The Ugly American" - it's quite good
Now back to the terms - interesting list, Mercutio, thanks for sharing it. Words are indeed very important, and choice of words comes from underlying belief systems. And that list certainly highlights some different underlying beliefs!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-25-2004, 12:38 AM | #19 | ||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(and how people can say that it's NOT about life, but about choice, when they're talking partial birth abortion to kill a full-term and completely viable baby, just mystifies me! ) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-25-2004 at 12:47 AM. |
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06-25-2004, 01:26 AM | #20 | |
the Shrike
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That list is... questionable.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 06-25-2004 at 01:30 AM. |
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