05-03-2006, 12:10 PM | #1 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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The Ban - why?
I would like to hear your opinon on the Ban of the Valar, the Ban to sail West from Numenor and to approach Valinor.
Why was it needed? Why couldn't Numenoreans visit Valinor? |
05-03-2006, 12:37 PM | #2 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I think they were afraid the Numenoreans would envy the beauty and eternal beauty of Valinor and this might somehow lessen their appreciation for the rest of middle earth. Though most of the blame for that can be laid at the feet of the Valar for choosing to stay so removed and on Eru for being so vague with his creations about what their existance was really about. A common mistake made by creator-types.
In retrospect, I think the Valar might have been better served remaining more active throughout middle earth. That way humans would better understand the pros and cons of eternal existance.
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05-03-2006, 01:39 PM | #3 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I would say to prevent what happened happening. I don't think Valinor provided immortality (it was being discussed somewhere), so the Numenoreans would have still blamed the Valar from withholding immortality from them.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-03-2006, 01:45 PM | #4 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Personally I think the Valar realised they made a mistake earlier to bring all the Elves they could find to Valinor and leave the rest of Middle-earth to itself. A mistake they didn't want to make with the Second-born as well.
Middle-earth was made for the Children of Eru, for them to live. If the Númenoreans also came to Valinor they most likely became too enamoured with it. They had to be able to go their own way, discover what shores and mysteries Middle-earth held, not Valinor.
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05-03-2006, 03:41 PM | #5 | ||
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05-03-2006, 03:57 PM | #6 | |||
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Just think on it: The Valar through their messengers assure Kings Ciryatan and Atanamir, that there is no immortality for Men in Valinor. They could have proved their words by allowing Men to visit and find it out themselves. But no, no admittance. Why? Nobody understands. Soon whispers start: they don't want us to become immortal. And when almost everybody believes that, Sauron comes. Quote:
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05-03-2006, 04:15 PM | #7 | |
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Well, fat chance! (literally) I can avoid BUYING chocolates, but if they're here, it's very hard to avoid EATING them, even though I know they're bad for me. As was discussed in another thread, Valinor would destroy humans if they stayed there. I think humans, if they were allowed to visit, couldn't avoid staying there, just like I can't avoid eating chocolates if they're in my house. And that would destroy them.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-03-2006, 04:39 PM | #8 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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If we continue chocolate example:
Suppose the Valar bring you a ton of best chocolate - you eat ... well ..3-10 kilos and then, I assure you, you won't be able to look at chocolates for a VERY long time. Numenor was a fair place, but still the people become restless. That is the way of Men. They wouldn't be sitting idly in the bliss of Valinor, once they discover that it doesn't give them immortality. They will see, that the place is beautiful, but very dull. One must be a Vanya Elf to appreciate it. Humans will soon grow sick of it. |
05-03-2006, 04:44 PM | #9 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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You underestimate the power of desire!
Humans may grow sick of it, but somehow, I don't think that would make them leave. The fear of death would keep them there, I think ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-03-2006, 05:35 PM | #10 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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It may well be that the Valar intended for the three clans of Edain to be the teachers and protectors for the rest of the Men in Middle-earth. And seen as much of the land west of the Blue Mountains was destroyed, it seems logical the Valar provided the Edain a safe home. Within the bounds of Númenor the Edain could regain strength and numbers they lost during the dark years of the First Age. I sincerely doubt the Valar intended the rest of Middle-earth to experience dark times. Maybe the Valar didn't forsee Sauron rising so soon again. Or if they did, and wanted to limit their own interventions (seen the damage it did to the country the last time) they may have counted on Númenor to become strong enough to be able to defeat Sauron without help from Valinor from now on. Númenor did eventually prove strong enough for Sauron to realise he wouldn't be able to stop them by force. In the general designs of things, I think the Valar reckoned it in the end is better for a child to learn to fight its own battles, then have its warden or parent fight them for him. The Valar made sure Númenor knew the arts of sailing and loved the sea so much they would never hole up in Númenor and never think about the Eastern shores of the world. In this, at least the, Valar didn't make the same mistake again as they made with the Eldar. Instead, sadly, they made some new ones...
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05-03-2006, 06:56 PM | #11 |
Elven Warrior
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There have been a lot of good suggestions already. I have one I would like to make. I certainly don’t think it was the Valar’s main reason, but it may have been part of their motivation or even just a bonus (for the Valar).
Maybe they didn’t want to associate with Men. When they were walking in their gardens or gazing out their windows at their perfect trees, and perfect lawns, and perfect everything else they didn’t want imperfect Men messing up the view. This may seem a little selfish, but so do many of the Valar’s actions (or inactions). |
05-04-2006, 05:36 PM | #12 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I think you hit the correct explanation, CAB. It is exactly like with the Elves in the First Age. They understood pretty soon that they just couldn't live in the same settlement with Men.
The Valar were selfish and they were utterly unable to understand humans. The prohibited fruit is SOO sweet! |
05-05-2006, 03:38 AM | #13 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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The Valar disliking the Secondborn would be contrary to Tolkien's beliefs and themes so I would find that highly unlikely. It's not because you value beauty that you value everything by beauty's standard.
I'm sure the Valar saw more in Men than we see in ourselves, after all, we are the ones that stare ourselves blind on beauty and immortality, often losing sight of the things we do possess instead. Furthermore, the Silmarillion gives enough examples of the Elves being far less than perfect too. They gave the Valar quite some grief but the Valar never disliked the Elves for it. No, I think you can blame the Valar for many faults, but disliking or looking down on Men isn't among them. Not understanding Men, that's quite another thing. The Valar were amazed by the appearance of the Children of Eru. They know how the plants, the earth, the birds in the sky worked because they had made them. But the Children of Eru: Men, Elves (and eventually Dwarves) were not from their thoughts but from Iluvatar.
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05-05-2006, 04:26 AM | #14 | |||||
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Last edited by Gordis : 05-05-2006 at 04:28 AM. |
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05-05-2006, 03:44 PM | #15 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Oh, I know you didn't mean that. I didn't use 'hated' either, just 'dislike'.
But I agree about the incompatibility. I wonder whether that was Eru's design or a result of Arda Marred. Oh, and I think the Green Elves of Ossiriand were about the most xenophobic of the whole lot, but that's another discussion, I think.
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05-05-2006, 05:43 PM | #16 | ||
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Maybe I am just too cynical, but I can’t see the Valar as being quite so noble as some think. I believe they were just as interested in their own lives as the lives of the Children of Iluvatar.
Consider why the Valar brought the Elves to Valinor. Quote:
How about the creation of Tol Eressea. While journeying to Valinor, the Teleri asked Ulmo to “stay their voyage” so that they could remain in contact with Osse (who was “ill-pleased that the voices of the Teleri should be heard no more in his domain”). This is what the Teleri wanted. Surely they were safe from the perils of Middle Earth here. But what was the Valar’s reaction? They were “ill-pleased”. Think about the creation of the Ents. Yavanna seemed to be more concerned with protecting her work than allowing the Children free reign in Middle Earth. Quote:
I am not arguing that the Valar were terrible or evil beings. I just think they were quite similar to us. They had their own lives to live. Weren’t they actually Children of Iluvatar too (minus the title, of course)? Last edited by CAB : 05-06-2006 at 06:42 AM. |
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05-05-2006, 07:25 PM | #17 |
The Insufferable
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I see the treatment of Men as a result of several mistakes that built upon one another.
The creation of Valinor was itself the Valar's biggest mistake - they abrogated their duties as stewards and guardians of Middle Earth, in order to create a haven for themselves where they were safe and didn't have to deal with the conflict Melkor caused. They were hiding. Because they Valar were hidden away on their own paradise removed from the rest of the world, they began hoarding all the good stuff that had been meant to be shared with an entire world - look at the Two Trees, for example. A lot is made of the fact that, oh, gasp, they were so beautiful - but you don't hear as much about the fact that the Valar kept the only light source in Middle Earth for themselves and left the rest of the world in darkness for Melkor to play with.. When the Elves show up, the Valar continue to screw up - they're enthralled by the Elves to the point that they actually go out and do something. In fact they bring Melkor to his knees, and if they wanted to they could have made the world safe for inhabitation again. Instead, they grab their new toys and go running back to their little clubhouse. Which brings me to the reason why Humans weren't allowed - it's not so much that the Valar didn't like humans, but that Humans weren't capable of living in Valinar. Going there wouldn't have made them immortal, it would have killed them. Their senses would have burned out as they overdosed on... life. The Valar, of course, were too selfish to do the right thing and change things to give a little more equitable balance of coolness. That's why Bilbo and Frodo go to Valinor to die. It's the equivilent of putting a terminally ill patient on drugs to ease their passing - sure, the drugs might be unhealthy, but they're going to die anyway.
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05-06-2006, 10:18 AM | #18 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Amen to that Wayfarer!
Actually Irmo did use poppeys in his deam gardens... So "being on drugs" could be correct even literally. http://allor.ramot.ru/images/humor/lost3.jpg Poppeys in Lorien. Illustration to the "Book of Lost Tales" by Allor Thank you, everybody who took part in this most interesting discussion Last edited by Gordis : 05-06-2006 at 10:23 AM. |
05-06-2006, 11:06 AM | #19 | |
Elf Lord
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..er ..Gor - last time i was around: weren't we Banned from discussing this??? course that was the ban of the Val ... Wotcha! Val - how ya diddling? hmm - ain't got time to read this just yet - but i look forward to joining in one day soonish! but very off the top of me head: ... maybe they were affraid of the common cold, or bird flu? ... or man's bad taste in haircuts? ... or that man would bring over bad-taste and wall-cladding or net curtains? maybe they were really no Valar at all - it was all some wizard of Oz type bloke in a room full of levers? ... maybe the Numenoreans were the Chavs of the western world, and the Valar were a bit uppitty or snobbish? personally i think it was because they smelt of garlic ... but that's just my view ... best all, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-06-2006 at 11:11 AM. |
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05-06-2006, 11:59 AM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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Think of em like lottery winners, guzzling chip butties and Diamond White at Glyndebourne, shouting at each other across the royal box. ( )
Or pikeys setting up their caravans in the Garden of Eden? So, The Valar = Daily Mail readers? Cut their benefits, ban singing the National Anthem in Spanish, etc. Actually, no, far less extreme than that. They just dumped a mountain on their heads. |