The four towers?

Nilore · 11-25-2002, 02:31 PM

This might sound sad but which two towers does the book mean?
There's Orthanc and Barad-Dur and then there's the two towers at the gates of Mordor. Which ones does it mean???????????

Nilore

Ms. Undomial · 11-25-2002, 02:37 PM

it means Orthanc and Barad- Dur. the two towers next to Barad-Dur are not really towers.

BeardofPants · 11-25-2002, 02:53 PM

Actually, it can refer to any of towers (Morgul, Barad-dur, Orthanc, etc) in the story. The title was enforced upon Tolkien by his publishers when they separated the book into three parts. Even Tolkien couldn't decide which two towers it was referring to: see "Letters" for more details.

Finrod Felagund · 11-25-2002, 03:18 PM

Yes, Orthanc, Minas Morgul, Minas Trith and Cirith Ungol would all work. I think that Minas Tirith would not be it because they do not arrive there until the RotK.

Ms. Undomial · 11-25-2002, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
Yes, Orthanc, Minas Morgul, Minas Trith and Cirith Ungol would all work.

I think the two towers were meant to be bad so therefor it could not be Minas Tirth. And, Cirith Ungol is not a tower! so, it could be orthanc, minas morgul, or Barad- dur.

***IronParrot*** · 11-25-2002, 08:09 PM

Quote:

"And, Cirith Ungol is not a tower!"

Uhh...

Quote:

"Book VI. Chapter 1. The Tower of Cirith Ungol"

You could pick basically any pair. I never thought about it in terms of the Towers of the Teeth, but maybe because in the context of The Lord of the Rings, they aren't all that significant, least of all in Books III and IV, which comprise The Two Towers.

Ñólendil · 11-25-2002, 08:27 PM

Tolkien himself often changed his mind about it.

olsonm · 11-25-2002, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IronParrot

Quote:

And, Cirith Ungol is not a tower

Uhh...

Quote:

Book VI. Chapter 1. "The Tower of Cirth Ungol"

Cirith Ungol was not a tower. It was the Spiders Cleft; but it had a tower guarding it.

Radagast The Brown · 11-26-2002, 04:30 PM

Quote:

originally posted by Ms. U
so, it could be orthanc, minas morgul, or Barad- dur.

I do think it could be Minas Tirith.

And cirith Ungul is not really a tower. (so I agree with olsonm and Ms. U)

Blackboar · 11-26-2002, 04:51 PM

I agree with you Radagast.

Keith K · 11-26-2002, 09:05 PM

The first time I read the Trilogy I was confused as to which two towers were being referred to in The Two Towers. Over time I came to believe that they must be Orthanc and Barad-Dur. I had never heard of the interesting fact Beardofpants related above. Now I'm in a conundrum about it all over again!

Lanelf · 11-26-2002, 10:44 PM

I was sure it was Orthanc and Cirith Ungol!

Lanelf.

BeardofPants · 11-27-2002, 01:56 AM

It can be whichever two towers you want it to be. It's all immaterial anyway, since the book orginally wasn't meant to be divided up like that.

BeardofPants · 11-27-2002, 02:11 AM

"The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 & 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol (1)." [Letter #140]

And in the footnote to the above (1):

"In a subsequent letter to Ranyer Unwin (#143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers (see #151) the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-horned (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name, Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (FotR p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgul flies."

"I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading." [Letter #143]

Nunc · 11-27-2002, 05:22 AM

Cirith Ungol/Minas Morgul was most definitely a tower. It was built to complement Minas Tirith and they were opposites, the Tower of the Setting Sun and the Tower of the Rising Moon, with Osgiliath, the capital of Gondor, in between straddling the Anduin.

The most sensible reading of the Two Towers is that it refers to the two towers in which or surrounding which the main action in books 3 and 4 takes place: Orthanc and Minas Morgul.

Silje · 11-27-2002, 11:17 AM

I always thought that the two towers were Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul. Those were the only two towers I was able to connect together, but I'm perhaps wrong.

Firekitten2006 · 11-27-2002, 12:59 PM

I thought it was Minas Tirith and Minas Morgal as well!!

Elf.Freak · 11-27-2002, 02:24 PM

I thought it was Saraman's tower Orthanc and Sauron's tower Barad Dhor, or is that just me?

Nilore · 11-27-2002, 02:45 PM

Well I've really got something going here. Thanks for your opinions though. Keep 'em comin'.

Nilore

Khadrane · 11-30-2002, 08:37 PM

I think it's Orthanc and Minas Morgul. At least, that's what it says at the very end of my copy of FotR.

11-25-2002, 02:37 PM	#2
Ms. Undomial Custous Sanctus Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In your subconsicious.... Posts: 1,184	it means Orthanc and Barad- Dur. the two towers next to Barad-Dur are not really towers. __________________ I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. - Dune

11-25-2002, 02:53 PM	#3
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Actually, it can refer to any of towers (Morgul, Barad-dur, Orthanc, etc) in the story. The title was enforced upon Tolkien by his publishers when they separated the book into three parts. Even Tolkien couldn't decide which two towers it was referring to: see "Letters" for more details. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 11-25-2002 at 02:55 PM.

11-25-2002, 03:18 PM	#4
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	Yes, Orthanc, Minas Morgul, Minas Trith and Cirith Ungol would all work. I think that Minas Tirith would not be it because they do not arrive there until the RotK. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

11-25-2002, 08:27 PM	#7
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Tolkien himself often changed his mind about it. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-26-2002, 10:44 PM	#12
Lanelf Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Second Drawer Down Posts: 407	I was sure it was Orthanc and Cirith Ungol! Lanelf. __________________ Hey, I'm back! resounding silence You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster

11-25-2002, 02:31 PM	#1
Nilore Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: I am every where and I am no where, I am everyone and I am no-one! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Posts: 319	The four towers? This might sound sad but which two towers does the book mean? There's Orthanc and Barad-Dur and then there's the two towers at the gates of Mordor. Which ones does it mean??????????? Nilore __________________ UZG-BURGÛLU-OB GHASHANUM GHASHNUM-OB MOR ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Raise the Phial of Galadriel and let the Star Glass of Lothlorian cast out the Darkness of Shelob's Lair. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurholth! There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bhûl latu dûmp Accept Your DOOM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DIE MERE MORTALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh NO I AM A MERE MORTAL AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHH Stop the NUKE Stop the NUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nilore writes last will and testament. Gets on knees And begs God for Mercy. Realizes He's already dead Flies up to heaven ( By the power of Red Bull) and lives happily ever after. THE END ( It's a MINI adventure) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

11-26-2002, 04:51 PM	#10
Blackboar Legolas's beloved sister and Queen of the Wood Elves of Mirkwood Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Under the hill at Bag-end, Hobbiton the Shire Or Rivendell,I can't remember!!!!!!!!!! Posts: 1,086	I agree with you Radagast.

11-26-2002, 09:05 PM	#11
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	The first time I read the Trilogy I was confused as to which two towers were being referred to in The Two Towers. Over time I came to believe that they must be Orthanc and Barad-Dur. I had never heard of the interesting fact Beardofpants related above. Now I'm in a conundrum about it all over again!

11-27-2002, 01:56 AM	#13
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	It can be whichever two towers you want it to be. It's all immaterial anyway, since the book orginally wasn't meant to be divided up like that. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

11-27-2002, 02:11 AM	#14
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	"The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 & 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol (1)." [Letter #140] And in the footnote to the above (1): "In a subsequent letter to Ranyer Unwin (#143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers (see #151) the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-horned (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name, Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (FotR p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgul flies." "I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading." [Letter #143] __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

11-27-2002, 05:22 AM	#15
Nunc Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: All Saints (Ship of Fools) Posts: 31	Cirith Ungol/Minas Morgul was most definitely a tower. It was built to complement Minas Tirith and they were opposites, the Tower of the Setting Sun and the Tower of the Rising Moon, with Osgiliath, the capital of Gondor, in between straddling the Anduin. The most sensible reading of the Two Towers is that it refers to the two towers in which or surrounding which the main action in books 3 and 4 takes place: Orthanc and Minas Morgul.

11-27-2002, 11:17 AM	#16
Silje Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 22	I always thought that the two towers were Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul. Those were the only two towers I was able to connect together, but I'm perhaps wrong.

11-27-2002, 12:59 PM	#17
Firekitten2006 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: the US of A! But I wish i was in austraila, never been, just think it would be a fun place to live :) Posts: 372	I thought it was Minas Tirith and Minas Morgal as well!! __________________ I'm Baaaack!!

11-27-2002, 02:24 PM	#18
Elf.Freak Orli's lil fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sugar World/Orlando Bloom Cloud Posts: 464	I thought it was Saraman's tower Orthanc and Sauron's tower Barad Dhor, or is that just me? __________________ >>--elven arrow--> ~ Give a man a fish and he'll feed for a day, give me a fish and you'll only get it back! ~ I've gotta new avatar! looks kinda like me...anime style! ~ LOST: Orlando Bloom. If found, please send him straight to Elf.Freak Last edited by Elf.Freak : 01-20-2003 at 02:29 PM.

11-27-2002, 02:45 PM	#19
Nilore Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: I am every where and I am no where, I am everyone and I am no-one! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Posts: 319	Well I've really got something going here. Thanks for your opinions though. Keep 'em comin'. Nilore __________________ UZG-BURGÛLU-OB GHASHANUM GHASHNUM-OB MOR ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Raise the Phial of Galadriel and let the Star Glass of Lothlorian cast out the Darkness of Shelob's Lair. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurholth! There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bhûl latu dûmp Accept Your DOOM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DIE MERE MORTALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh NO I AM A MERE MORTAL AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHH Stop the NUKE Stop the NUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nilore writes last will and testament. Gets on knees And begs God for Mercy. Realizes He's already dead Flies up to heaven ( By the power of Red Bull) and lives happily ever after. THE END ( It's a MINI adventure) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

11-30-2002, 08:37 PM	#20
Khadrane Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Middle Earth (I wish) Posts: 670	I think it's Orthanc and Minas Morgul. At least, that's what it says at the very end of my copy of FotR. __________________ Few know whither their road will take them till they come to its end. -Legolas FRODO LIVES! ABORTION IS HOMICIDE

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