The Protests- what's your opinion?

[Daughter of Elros]

I know that this could be an emotional topic (at least it is in my High School)
But I wanted to know what people's opinions of the student walkouts yesterday, and war in general, even were.

And of course, I'll just say this as a disclaimer, not that it'll be needed- everybody, keep it civil.

Well have at it guys!

-DoE

[Insidious Rex]

Go first amendment. If Bush is smart he'll make this point constantly: Hey see what is allowed in a democratic country? couldnt happen in Iraq. Etc.

[Daughter of Elros]

so what's your opinion of all of the students yesterday who walked out of classes and stuff during school to protest War in Iraq?

-DoE

[Insidious Rex]

uh well I had no problem with it. If they truly believe it then its a good way to express yourself I guess. They just better be willing to pay the price of a possible suspension for their beliefs. The only thing that bothers me is that you know so many kids just used it as an opportunity to skip school for a day and could care less about Iraq or world peace or anything beyond their little worlds.

[Daughter of Elros]

true in some cases I suppose- But I know at our walkout, we had about alittle under a quarter of the school who risked it even with all of the threats- and we were all there for reasons other than getting out of class- actually, very few of us wanted to leave our classes- we only did it because we belived in our causes- either Pro-war or Anti-War

-DoE

[sun-star]

If it gets young people interested in politics, it's a good thing.

Not that I agree with them, however.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Daughter of Elros
we only did it because we belived in our causes- either Pro-war or Anti-War

-DoE

Pro war people walked out too? doesnt that give a mixed message then? Where are you from anyway?

[markedel]

I know at York University anyways the "pro-peace" protests were highly anti-Israel-enough so that they dengenerated into overt anti-Semitism. It's my largest problem with the current "peace" movement-it's a thin line between being pro-peace and condoning terrorism and tyranny. Actually it's also the reason I can't support parties of the left (somethings Americans, I suppose, don't really need to worry about).

[Baby-K]

I do not support the war on Iraq. What was at first a war on Terrorism caused by the events of 9/11 seems to have shifted focus - from a need of a country to find solace in bringing the man / people who did those terrible deeds to justice, to a one man show of a president wanting a war against another country for financial gain (that's my opinion anyway, no matter how it is sugar coated to say that it's in the interest of the free world).

It's interesting that the students in the US have staged a peaceful protest by way of a walk out, I would certainly support such a thing, however (in agreement with Markedel) I would be very careful of that "thin line". The world has changed to such a degree that it seems we are basing our views of right and wrong on the events in the Middle East and though these events are historically important surely they cannot be the only measures? It has become so prolific that any pro-peace sentiments can (to some extent) be interpreted either Anti-Semite or Anti-Muslim.

OK that's my tupence worth, just an aside - are there not enough "Iraq" threads already & shouldn't they rather be grouped as one?

[Spock]

That's who's protesting. Those who really care about peace are drowned out and invisible to the media. All one sees are re-hashed signs from the 60's movements and signs for every cause from anti Semitism, to abortion, to gay rights etc. There's no unifying message and the students are just using the excuse of protesting for peace to further their individual and collective adgendas. For a peace march scene, look back to The Revered Martin Luther King. He knew how to have a peace march.

[Daughter of Elros]

Pro war people walked out too? doesnt that give a mixed message then? Where are you from anyway?

They came to give a little demonstration against our protest.
not a mixed message, but yes, two very different ones.
and I'm from upstate New York

-DoE

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Daughter of Elros
They came to give a little demonstration against our protest.
not a mixed message, but yes, two very different ones.
and I'm from upstate New York

-DoE

oh ok. the home of woodstock. a fairly liberal area. Im surprised you had a big enough group of pro-war people to even organize. I went to college in upstate new york. its nice but theres not much there and it snows like crazy.

[jerseydevil]

I don't like "pro-war" title. NO ONE is pro-war. It's just that we, the people who support military action against Iraq, want Iraq once and for all to disarm. I personally want him removed from power. Nothing will change in Iraq - even if he does disarm now. He'll turn around and start rebuilding as soon as inspectors leave.

There have been plenty of "Pro-Action" rallies.

I don't really care if the students walked out of classes - just as long as they had permission from their parents and the school. Who would be liable if the marches turned violent and people got hurt? I have a feeling parents would be suing schools for allowing their children to leave school grounds without permission.

Also - most of the students who I saw marching just looked like it was a fun time, as if all they wanted to do was get out of classes.

One thing that bothers me about all the peace marches - no one speaks out against the attrocities of the Iraqi government. Hussein takes wives and sisters of prisoners to the jails, where the guards rape them in front of their jailed husbands and brothers. He is a brutal dictator yet - the so called peace marchers have Nazi symbols painted on the American Flag or call Bush Satan. Demonstrate against the real attrocities and march to demand that Iraqi disarm and give up all his weapons.

One thing I think is really wrong is the arrest of that guy who was wearing a "Peace" shirt in the mall in New York. They argue that the mall is private property and the mall requested that he leave and refused to. I am torn though - because I know if you wear certain things to a mall or amusement park - like a shirt which has cursing on it or is too revealing - they'll make you leave. So what do people think about the mal asking that guy to leave? On one had he was expressioning his beliefs, but on the other it was the mall's property and he might have caused an uproar. I just don't think that shirt went over the line though.

By the way - have people heard that the Human Shields are leaving Iraq now. It seems being there opened up their eyes a little bit to what Hussein is like. They thought they'd be protecting Hospitals, Schools and the general population. Instead Hussein was having them stand around military installations and oil refineries and other places. He wanted them to guard his assests - not his people.

There is also reports that Hussein is buying US and Bristish uniforms (or knockoffs). It's felt he's going to try using his military dressed up in OUR uniforms to kill his own people so it looks like we did it.

Hussein is a tyrant who must be removed - before he develops Iraq into the North Korea of the Middle East.

[Daughter of Elros]

I would truly like to beleive that no one is really for war- actually wanting it, instead of just accepting it as the inevitable or what have you. But I find that impossible when staring at of of the large PRO-WAR signs that the little group of war supporters had.

on another note, I'm just curous- what college did you go to, Insidious Rex?

-DoE

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Daughter of Elros
on another note, I'm just curous- what college did you go to, Insidious Rex?

-DoE

The big one up in Ithaca. CU.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Daughter of Elros
I would truly like to beleive that no one is really for war- actually wanting it, instead of just accepting it as the inevitable or what have you. But I find that impossible when staring at of of the large PRO-WAR signs that the little group of war supporters had.

I know they hold up the pro-war signs. But does anyone really think they are PRO-war? I don't know what you can say that would demonstrate that you support the actions being taken by us - without saying you're pro-war. I'm not pro-war, but I'm for the final removal of Hussein. I always was - even when several months ago it was "only" about disarmament. If it wasn't for the military buildup - Hussein wouldn't be doing anything.

The anti-war crowd carry numerous US flags painted with Nazi symbols and other anti-American stuff. Yet we're not supposed to think that the so called peace demonstrators are anti-american. I still find it ironic that these so called peace demonstrators carry no signs denouncing the evils that Hussein does or carry signs demanding that Iraq 100% comply with UN inspections.

[LuthienTinuviel]

I believe that we have to get rid of Hussein. that's a fact.
But, who else could come to power? His brother is one hundred times worse than he is. I am all for disarmament and the like, but think about where some of the anti-American Iraqis are coming from.. would you want to have some other country have guards in yours to "keep the peace?"
I wouldn't. In fact, it would make me angry. I do believe that i might categorise those feelings into "hate" after a while as well.

I believe that at this point, the only peaceful soloution is to draw out completely from Iraq. But, of course we can't do that. Bushy needs his oil, precious.
I know that's not the only reason, so don't try and call me on that. i just think that it's one of the biggies.

another reason i do not support the use of force is the simple fact that i have neither seen nor heard any solid... well, anything to fight a war over. i have heard reasons, yes... but have i seen the evidence? no.
All this talk of a "smoking gun".. they have yet to find it.

i know that it is more than likely that hussein is hiding weapons. in fact i believe that he is hiding something, but i still need proof to make my 98% a 100%

also, i think that the US controls enough as it is. We have problems here too, lets spend our money on our domestic problems before investing in a war.
i know that the country will never be free of rascism (sp?) or robberies, or murders etc, but we could help out a little more in dept's like those, before we go trying to solve other countries problems.


other than that, the next soloution is to make a large radioactive hole in the ground where the entire middle east is....

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
I believe that we have to get rid of Hussein. that's a fact.
But, who else could come to power? His brother is one hundred times worse than he is.

It's his son - Uday - who is a hundred times worse than him.

I am all for disarmament and the like, but think about where some of the anti-American Iraqis are coming from.. would you want to have some other country have guards in yours to "keep the peace?"
I wouldn't. In fact, it would make me angry. I do believe that i might categorise those feelings into "hate" after a while as well.

Which Anti-American Iraqis? the one's who are at the head of the government and who routinely TORTURE their own people??? What about all the Iraqis who have come forward in support of military action - including the Kurds in northern Iraq? You think the Iraqis like living in fear?

I believe that at this point, the only peaceful soloution is to draw out completely from Iraq. But, of course we can't do that. Bushy needs his oil, precious.
I know that's not the only reason, so don't try and call me on that. i just think that it's one of the biggies.

Sorry - have to call you on it. We could have Iraq's oil any time. France and Russia have been trying to get sanctions lifted for years. if we wanted the oil - we could just approve the lifting of sanctions.

By the way - the amount of money the US will get from the oil will not pay for the war - especially if Hussein ends up blowing up the wells. So I don't buy the "Bushy needs his oil" argument. It's more that the US ends to bring about change in the Middle East in order to prevent terrorism. Until the governments in that region change - terrorism will not go away.

another reason i do not support the use of force is the simple fact that i have neither seen nor heard any solid... well, anything to fight a war over. i have heard reasons, yes... but have i seen the evidence? no.
All this talk of a "smoking gun".. they have yet to find it.

Iraq was supposed to SUPPLY proof that it eliminated all the weapons UN KNEW they had. They have not complied with the 17 UN resolutions as of yet. The only reason the weapons inspectors went in there was to confirm that what Iraq supplied was accurate and complete. Months ago it was determined that they had not.

i know that it is more than likely that hussein is hiding weapons. in fact i believe that he is hiding something, but i still need proof to make my 98% a 100%

Well he's not SUPPOSED to be hiding weapons. If he came clean - we wouldn't be heading for war. The only reason why he is even complying as much as he has been is because of the US force. All this waiting is just letting him prepare and set up defenses which will ultimately cause more deaths.

also, i think that the US controls enough as it is. We have problems here too, lets spend our money on our domestic problems before investing in a war.
i know that the country will never be free of rascism (sp?) or robberies, or murders etc, but we could help out a little more in dept's like those, before we go trying to solve other countries problems.

You think throwing money at those problems is going to help it? How is money going to help prevent racism? If something isn't done about Iraq now - they WILL be another North Korea. When that happens - there will be far more deaths and far more innocent people dead. Not to mention all the Iraqi's Hussein will continue to kill through the years.

other than that, the next soloution is to make a large radioactive hole in the ground where the entire middle east is....

Well if we back down from handling Iraq and let Hussein go about what he wants to do - maybe in 5 years there will be that situation.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
By the way - the amount of money the US will get from the oil will not pay for the war - especially if Hussein ends up blowing up the wells. So I don't buy the "Bushy needs his oil" argument. It's more that the US ends to bring about change in the Middle East in order to prevent terrorism. Until the governments in that region change - terrorism will not go away.

Of course its not JUST about oil. I think thats way too simplistic too. BUT.... the companies who would most benefit from gaining the oil fields in Iraq (even if they are damaged by Hussein. Theres still tons and tons of oil to recover) would be the very same cronies of Dick Cheney who also want to dig up all our national parks so they can sell their oil as well. And they dont care how much the american tax payers have to cough up to fund this war because they dont have to pay a dime. They just get to profit when the oil is available which it will be if Russia and France actually veto the idea of an attack and america has to do it on its own. to the winner go the spoils. and the winner will include Cheney (and Bushes) fat cat oil buddies who give them millions of dollars in campaign donations for this very reason. You think they are doing it because they want to rid the world of Hussein? Come on. there a dozen and a half Husseins around the world. Why arent they being hawkish on them too? Its clear oil IS a factor in this and in a most slimey way.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Of course its not JUST about oil. I think thats way too simplistic too. BUT.... the companies who would most benefit from gaining the oil fields in Iraq (even if they are damaged by Hussein. Theres still tons and tons of oil to recover) would be the very same cronies of Dick Cheney who also want to dig up all our national parks so they can sell their oil as well.

All our national parks? Which one's may that be? Also - can you please state the percentage of acreage which would have oil fields in the artic wildlife refuge.

And they dont care how much the american tax payers have to cough up to fund this war because they dont have to pay a dime. They just get to profit when the oil is available which it will be if Russia and France actually veto the idea of an attack and america has to do it on its own. to the winner go the spoils. and the winner will include Cheney (and Bushes) fat cat oil buddies who give them millions of dollars in campaign donations for this very reason. You think they are doing it because they want to rid the world of Hussein? Come on. there a dozen and a half Husseins around the world. Why arent they being hawkish on them too? Its clear oil IS a factor in this and in a most slimey way.

I disagree - Hussein has been an issue for a long time. It's funny how when the US does anything with the middle east it's for oil. People seem to forget that we did the same thing to Moleshvic - and he wasn't attacking anyone outside his country. Serbia and Bosnia was not an IMMEDIATE threat to the US.

I'm not denying that oil is a factor in the Middle East dealings. But I don't think it is as much of a factor as the anti-war people want to make it out to be. We could have had the oil after the first Gulf War if we wanted. Everyone claims the US pushes it's weight around - really - who was going to stop us if we just went on into to Iraq? Do you REALLY think the coalition would have turned their guns on us? I doubt it.

Also the world is going to be watching how we conduct ourselves here. I think the oil will be used to rebuild Iraq. Once fighting starts I'm sure France and Russia and Germany will come around with there hands out for a piece of Iraqi oil deals.

I really do like how America is after all this oil - yet the only reason why France and Russia are against the war is BECAUSE of their oil deals. I guess oil for the blood of Iraqi citizens is okay though.

Remeber also - France and Russia didn't even support the initial inspection of Iraq after the Gulf War. I would question more of what those two countries are afraid of. How many illegal items are going to be found with the stamp - "Made in France" or Made in Russia" Not to mention the "Made in Germany" items.