04-23-2005, 10:51 AM | #1 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Boromir I became a wraith?
I have a small question for you that I came by while reading the tread “Men of the Appendices”
Remember Boromir I son of Denethor I ? Quote:
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04-23-2005, 11:55 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Great observation! I suspect that he received elvish medicine and did not become a wraith but died very prematurely by the standards of his people. Recall that Frodo's wound per Gandalf was not wholly able to be healed in this world. And Frodo's dealing with the afte-reffects was not pleasant physically or psychologically or spiritually. And he had the unexpected Hobbit resistance to the wound! All IMHO, of course.
Had Boromir I become a wraith (or Tolkien intended us to understand that), I think there would have been descriptions of the abnormality of his physical illness and absence or disappearance rather than death.
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04-23-2005, 12:56 PM | #3 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I agree with inked. If he had become a wraith then he would have been noted disappeared, not died. I suspect that by Morgul wound Tolkien did not mean the kind that Frodo had, but some other Morgul wound. Also the Nine were around at the end of SA, and at the end of TA there was still only Nine. Surely if he became a wraith he would have fought for Sauron with the Nine, mybe perhaps with the promise of one of the Nine rings if he performed great deeds and served Sauron well.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
04-23-2005, 02:10 PM | #4 | |
Fëanorophobic
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04-23-2005, 02:18 PM | #5 |
The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles
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Yes, agree with TD and Beren. I'm not very into this story, but I agree that Tolkien wouldn't have written 'died' if he became a ghost.
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04-23-2005, 05:01 PM | #6 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
Interestingly, Aragorn knew pretty well about morgul wounds from the beginning. At the time of Weathertop attack he recognized the knife immediately. However, by that time the nazgul were a long-forgotten history. Gandalf said they were not seen in the world for a very long time. Why, Boromir II has not even recognised the Witch-King when he appeared at the battle of Osgiliath. (Strange, isn't it, in Gondor they must have known all along who the Lord of Morgul was). So where has Aragorn picked his knowledge about Morgul blades? From Gondor lore, I think, which he learned while he served there as Thorongil. And IMHO, it was the story of Boromir I that still circulated in Gondor. There must have been other similar stories with less lucky victims. If Boromir has not become a wraith, then he must have had magical assistance. Whose assistance? Hardly Elrond's. I think of either Gandalf or Saruman. Quote:
I think there were lots of wraiths in Minas Morgul. Look at Minas Morgul descriptions: ” The tower isn't empty, is it? ' `O no, not empty! ' whispered Gollum. `It seems empty, but it isn't, O no! Very dreadful things live there. Orcs, yes always Orcs; but worse things, worse things live there too”. Faramir says almost the same: The nazgul “took Minas Ithil and dwelt there, and they filled it, and all the valley about, with decay: it seemed empty and was not so, for a shapeless fear lived within the ruined walls.“It is a place of sleepless malice, full of lidless eyes”. Even the valley was called “Imlad Morgul, the Valley of Living Death” (Faramir’s words). It was no place for the living beings, even the river was poisoned. What was it that the Witch-King treatened to do to Eowyn? “ I will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye”. In other words it means: “I will stab you with a Morgul knife and you will become a wraith”. That is what the Morgul King usually did to those who hindered him. What do you think has become of Earnur, the last King of Gondor? Most likely he was not tortured to death, as it was believed in Gondor. The Witch King was too cruel to let an enemy escape to Mandos. IMHO Earnur has become a wraith and polished the Witch-King’s boots and mended his cloaks ever since. |
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04-23-2005, 05:42 PM | #7 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-23-2005, 10:18 PM | #8 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Maybe it's possible that he received a wound that was by no means mortal, but that the very fact that it came from a morgul blade shortened his days anyway... sort of from the same bag of tricks as the Black Breath, the fear inspired by the nazgul, etc.
Remember that Frodo was wounded on his shoulder - and that the part of the blade inside him was working toward his heart. If Boromir was wounded in say an arm or a leg... or if wounded, but no piece of the blade remained inside of him, there may have been no chance of him becoming a wraith. Thinking about it again now though, the part of this that surprises me is that even the Witch-king feared him. I guess I remember it now that it comes up again, but I had never thought about it much. I wonder why he would fear him - especially if he already knew Glorfindel's words from 1975 (hmmm... EXACTLY 500 years before he tangled with Boromir...).
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04-24-2005, 11:03 AM | #9 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Second, it shows that people stabbed by a Morgul-knife become wraiths under the command of the Ringwraiths. Third. It shows that wraiths (including the ringwraiths) are not robots, they are able to feel, to suffer, they remember their past and they continue to pine for the rings they have lost. They are slaves of Sauron, not willing and happy servants. Quote:
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04-24-2005, 11:08 AM | #10 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Thanks for the quote.
Morgul-wound could just mean a wound given from the blade of the Ringwraith, and that was the name given to them, to make them distinctive. If infact it was the same kind of blade that wounded Frodo then I agree with Val that it probably was on the arm or legs.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
04-24-2005, 03:53 PM | #11 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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The Morgul-blade is a fragile weapon. It will never pierce a mailshirt or even a leather hauberk. So only the places left unprotected were vulnerable. So it may have been a wound in the leg, below the chainmail, yes.
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04-24-2005, 05:46 PM | #12 |
The Intermittent One
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some thoughts...
morgul vale filled with wraiths - yes i think, including some form of 'watcher' maybe taken by the WK, also a yes from me boromir I wraith - very possible i think, i think that if he had "disappeared" for lack of better word, then it would have been recorded as 'died' for the reason that if you don't know what has happened to someone, if they vanish in the night, then you would think of them as dead, would you not? |
04-25-2005, 02:04 AM | #13 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Yet this change would not have happened overnight. If he was becoming a wraith then the change would be obvious to others.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
04-25-2005, 03:17 PM | #14 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Sure it was obvious to others. And there had to be other victims of Morgul blades that did turn into wraiths. So the diagnosis was obvious.
I think that Boromir has not turned into a wraith, because he lived and ruled Gondor for 14 (!) years, so he had to be healed, at least partially. As for Gondor chronicles, you can hardly expect them to record that "the famous Boromir has become a minor wraith in Minas Morgul". The chronicles were kept clean for posterity, the unsavory facts removed. Remember Queen Beruthiel? Exactly like that. Same about Earnur. |
04-26-2005, 03:46 AM | #15 | |
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Poor Eärnur though... he probably WAS! Hmmm... do you think the spirits of all those who were made wraiths like that were "freed" when the Ring was destroyed?
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04-26-2005, 06:32 AM | #16 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Poor, poor, Namo-Mandos! Last edited by Gordis : 04-26-2005 at 06:33 AM. |
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05-20-2005, 11:36 AM | #17 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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The crowd in Mandos? I forgot was Mandos supposed to JUDGE all the men or just send them further? Anyone has any idea?
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And what do you think perhaps the Stewards didn't claim the throne because they KNEW King Earnur WAS NOT DEAD? Perhaps they waited for him to come all cold and transparent-like to claim the Throne? |
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05-20-2005, 12:05 PM | #18 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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No. The fact that Firiel married Arvedui, an heir of Isildur,was probably a well known fact. They were probably waiting for one of their heirs to come and claim the throne.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-20-2005, 06:29 PM | #19 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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As for the "wraith Earnur", I doubt Gondor would be happy if he returned one day... Strange the Morgul Lord has not played this card, though. It might have been a very cruel joke. |
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05-21-2005, 08:29 AM | #20 | |
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