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03-02-2003, 07:25 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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Is the Aragorn-Arwen love story important to the LOTR?
I thought it would be good to create a legitimate place to continue an off-topic discussion that started on another thread about the romance between Arwen and Aragorn.
The question: Is the love story of Aragorn and Arwen important to the telling (movie or book) of the Lord of the Rings? Earlier comments included: BB: The only difference from the book is that PJ is focusing on this intriguing love story more than Tolkien did. Gwaimir Windgem: The reason Tolkien didn't focus on it is because it did not belong in the Lord of the Rings, as he states in his letters. BB: I don't know what Tolkien's LETTERS say, but the books HE WROTE include the love story of Arwen and Aragorn. Jackson didn't make it up. The only difference between the books and the movies is the level of focus. So don't give us any baloney about this romance not belonging in LOTR. It most certainly does. Gwaimir Windgem: No, it is in poor keeping with the story. That is why Tolkien relegated it to the Appendices. Sorry about the confusion; he said that, while he liked the story, it did NOT belong with the main story of the Lord of the Rings, and therefore he put it in the back. What do the rest of you think? |
03-02-2003, 07:28 PM | #2 |
Lady of Westernesse
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Is the Aragorn-Arwen love story important to the Lord of the Rings?
Hmmm....let me think...oh...what's that word...oh yeah. NO.
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03-02-2003, 07:35 PM | #3 |
Doughy Elf
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I don't really think that it is all that important. Sure, it is fine to have in there, but if they didn't put it in I wouldn't complain.
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03-02-2003, 07:41 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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I always thought that it helped to define Aragorn's character. Obviously Peter Jackson thought so too.
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03-02-2003, 07:45 PM | #5 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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If you just took that silly horse-wrassler out, you could have more time for the development of characters all round, Aragorn's included.
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03-02-2003, 07:48 PM | #6 |
Elf Lord
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If you hadn't wasted your time freaking out about cliff falls and helping horses, you'd have noticed that Jackson was brilliantly developing Aragorn's character. backatcha
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03-02-2003, 07:50 PM | #7 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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If you hadn't been busy raving about the divinity of Jackson, you'd have noticed it was just an excuse for more Arwen (including a shot of the *erhem* 'Evenstar').
BackatCHA
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03-02-2003, 08:02 PM | #8 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Re: Is the Aragorn-Arwen love story important to the LOTR?
Well in the book there's a lot of subtle hints to their love story, so you could say it's in there, forming the background, and giving some of the reasons for Aragorn to act like he does. But so are many other things, references to the Elder days, and history previously unfolded that determines the actions of everyone taking part in the war of the Ring. Much of this background is placed in the appendices. That's why reading the appendices after reading the book the first time, makes you want to read the book one more time, at once!
Conclusion: No, I don't think their love story was essential to the story of the war of the Ring. But the love between Aragorn and Arwen and their marriage was very important to the history of Middle-Earth. It brought a renewed strain of Elvish blood and nobility to the powerful rulers of the kingdom of Men. About the movie: I basicly think the Aragorn-Arwen scenes suck, mainly because of Liv Tyler. And I'm no male, so I thought the tit-thingy was just plain stupid So how did the presence of Arwen help to develop Aragorn's character? The only thing I noticed was that Elrond got to show off his rather scary overprotective-father side.
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03-02-2003, 08:02 PM | #9 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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One didn't play it up enough (Tolkien), the other, too much (Jackson)
I was always somewhat annoyed at this bit in the books. Aragorn cleans up and is with her at Rivendell. Bilbo refers to her with a sentence. Then she sews a banner, and they get married. To skimpy! (IMO) The bit in the movie where she puts the sword to his throat is highly annoying for me. I can't imagine saying hello to the "love of your life", who you haven't seen in ages that way! I think they could have used more "big elvish names"in FoTR. It wouldn't have confused people, it probably would have piqued interest (IMO) , so dumping Glorfingle was not good to me. That decided though, I thought using Arwen in his place was interesting. It beats my mental image of her pouring her heart out into a banner! I'm still digesting TTT.
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03-02-2003, 08:05 PM | #10 |
the Shrike
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Nope.
...Oh you want justification? Hmm, well let's see... The story's focal points would be: the development and maturation of the hobbits, the destruction of the ring, the fading of the elves, and the third age, the Great War, etc, etc. Don't see any room for an elf-hussy there, do you? No, I'm sorry, but I don't think that their love story was important to the story line. Whether he had Arwen's love or not, Aragorn would still have been forced to take up his role of king-ship. He would still have been part of the fellowship. He would still have ridden down the paths of the dead. Arwen doesn't have jack-**** to do with the main themes in LOTR.
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03-02-2003, 08:08 PM | #11 |
protector of orphaned rabbits
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must....not.....flame............ARGH!
I think that it is important, but not to LotR.
And BB, you can talk about Arwen and Aragorn's story being important to LotR with out talking about the movies. Then, this thread should be put in the books forum. EDIT: But, you have to drag Jackson into EVERYTHING so to you, im sure this is different.
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03-02-2003, 08:10 PM | #12 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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That's interesting Artanis! Yes the appendices are there, but many people might not read them. ( I just skim them quickly, which is painfully obvious sometimes, but I've never been a Tolkien scholar type!) Though the appendices have "nuggets", they can be quite dry and history classish. I don't consider them part of the story proper! That's just me!
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03-02-2003, 08:10 PM | #13 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Not really. It is more about should they have/should they not have had it.
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03-02-2003, 08:26 PM | #14 |
Long lost mooter
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No, the love "story" isn't important to the telling of either tale, but boy am I glad it was put in both! The story of Aragorn and Arwen was beautiful and romantic. I think it made sense for Tolkien to write it as he did, because inserting the history of their romance in the middle of the book wouldn't have flowed well. He didn't have to flesh out the story in the Appendices, but I for one am glad he did.
I also think PJ was right to include it in the story proper, because it fits well and he certainly doesn't have the option of an appendix. I mean, why not? Why wouldn't he include it? There were of course things I would have done differently, but that has been discussed elsewhere. The movie as written has the dual character focus of Frodo and his quest and Aragorn going from ranger to king. I think that Arwen plays a large role in his motivation (as do other things), and it makes sense to show the audience their relationship. It is explained subtly in the book, but has to be dramatized in the movie if it is to make sense to moviegoers. It is an imaginative, romantic tale that had rich possibilities for dramatization. As I said, why not include it? Although, again, this is not to say I agree w/ all of the decisions he made in including her. |
03-02-2003, 10:32 PM | #15 | ||
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The character of Arwen was actually added by Tolkien at the last minute. This leads me to believe that he didn't place as much value on it as on other threads of the plot.
The romance between Arwen and Aragorn is a great story, just not one that's important to LotR. One great thing about Middle-earth is there are so many great stories and characters that we only glimpse for a few moments - enough to get a sense of a world larger than the events you're experiencing. The Aragorn-Arwen love story is such a story. When we're in LotR, it's not important, and therefore we only see a small part. But it's still part of the richer fabric of Middle-earth, as another great story.
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03-02-2003, 10:37 PM | #16 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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No-one's denying that; it's a fine story. It's just not a part of THE Story, i.e. the one that is told.
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03-02-2003, 11:14 PM | #17 |
The Precious
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NOOOOO! It's not important!!! Arwen is too lovesick in the movie.
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03-02-2003, 11:16 PM | #18 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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The discussion is not concerning whether or not the characters were well-portrayed, or whether or not the roles were well-played, or anything of the sort. The discussion was about whether or not the story is important to the Lord of the Rings, as the title states.
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03-03-2003, 12:07 AM | #19 |
The Redneck Elf
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Their story is very important to the plot, though not directly involved.
Remember in Return of the King when Gandalf and Aragorn go off and find the Tree? Aragorn was upset because he didn't think he was going to marry Arwen and worried that he would have gone through all this trouble to reclaim the throne, only to have Gondor fall once again due to lack of an heir. She was one of Aragorn's motivations to do alot of the things that he did. So basically I think their story was essential to the plot but not involved with it ;which is why Tolkien left it to the appendixes. However, as someone stated before, movies can't have appendixes so that wouldn't have worked. In a movie you can't just have someone show up and say "Hey! Remember me? Let's get married!" Arwen's introduction was needed in the movies to make her likeable and seem worthy of the King before the wedding.( I'm guessing at this point you're still gonna have some people mad because Eowyn didn't get him) Arwen's role in the movies was justified and appropriate IMO. BB: I think she was very important to the development of Aragorn's character.
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03-03-2003, 12:51 AM | #20 | ||
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Well, I agree she needed to be in the movies, but I don't think she needed as much screen time as she got.
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