05-08-2007, 01:26 PM | #1 |
Hobbit
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What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR
Although the LOTR trilogy was pretty good, it was far from perfect and much of it strayed terribly from Tolkien, such as the Elves at Helm's Deep.
IMHO, what really kept the series from being a disaster was the strength of Tolkien's work, a work so powerful that even those two dopey women, Fran and Philippa, couldn't screw it up too badly. In contrast, compare LOTR to PJ's next effort, King Kong, to get a better feel for just how totally incompetent those two screenwriters were (and are). My list of complaints include the dumb Arwen dream sequences, the 'dramatic' loss of Aragorn over the cliff during the fight en route to Helm's Deep, the aforementioned Elves, the numerous pointless changes to Tolkien's work (such as Frodo correctly guessing the password into Moria instead of Pippin [or was it Merry?]), and the omission of incredibly important plot points from these works (such as Denethor's use of the palantir). I am no PJ fanboy and do not hesitate to take him to task for these sins. For $300MM and 2 years of shooting, these films should have been perfect. Does anyone else have an opinion here? |
05-08-2007, 04:32 PM | #2 | |
Elf Lord
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Arwen sure is purty |
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05-08-2007, 05:02 PM | #3 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I think he did a good job all told. Out of the thousands of movies made based upon books, only a handful equal or exceed the book version. Many are terrible, many are average, and many are pretty good. I'd put LOTR in the pretty good category.
My litmus test was not how much I liked it, since I have too much book baggage to be objective, but how much my kids did. And the enjoyed them quite a lot (though their major complaint was the drawn out dream sequences as well ).
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05-08-2007, 08:41 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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I agree that it wasn't perfect, and there were too many changes.
However, I wouldn't call Fran Walsh (or Philippia Boyens) dopey. And I'm not sure what you're trying to say about King Kong, as the screenplay was by Fran Walsh and Philippia Boyens in King Kong as well. (or are you saying that the screenplay was incompetent in King Kong?)
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05-09-2007, 11:31 AM | #5 |
Elven Warrior
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Making a cinematic version of the Lord of the Rings is a very difficult challenge and changes in the story will always occur whoever were to make the movie(s).
Firstly the number of characters that appear in the book is much to high for movies (don't you hate when someone leans over and says 'now who is that again'). With this in mind the changes that I most disliked are: Elves at Helms Deep - I need a good explanation for this Entmoot - why did Merry and Pippen have to fool Treebeard into attacking Isengard when you go through the trouble of filming the Entmoot. Faramir - I think PJ slipped on this- Faramir is a truly great character and is treated poorly in the movie (imho) Hems Deep - the battle is great, however Theoden decision to go there in the movie is not correct at all, and seems only done to make it appear that Aragorn is dead - not cool I also did not appreciate the whole sequences of Elrond and Galadriel telekinetic communication - just too hokey. However as a fan of cinema - PJ's movies are an incredible achievment and the few issues I have over a 12 hour movie seems like quibbling. If you want to see a scene by scene recreation of the LOTR it would have to be done on TV where a scene like The Shadow of the Past can get a proper treatment. This could work if whatever network signed on was willing to produce a show with a finite storyline and ending. |
05-09-2007, 01:37 PM | #6 | |||||
Advocatus Diaboli
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05-09-2007, 03:44 PM | #7 |
Elven Warrior
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Faramir does come off better in the extended editions as it shows some backstory - although in the book it is clear Faramir made a choice - a choice that Denethor ridicules :
"For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift." |
05-10-2007, 10:03 PM | #8 | |
Elven Warrior
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05-12-2007, 10:59 PM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
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Faramir - have you read this? http://www.istad.org/tolkien/faramir.html According to the script writers, to have Faramir simply pass immediately on the Ring after all that have been emphasized previously as to its irresistability and utter corruptibility would have been unbelievable to most viewers. Elrond and Galadrial's "teleknetic communication" - 100% true to the book. From the Tolkien Meta-FAQ: Was there "telepathy" in Middle-earth? Although it is not emphasized in the books, direct communication of thought from mind to mind was certainly part of Middle-earth. This is stated directly in the chapter "Many Partings" of LotR, when Celeborn, Galadriel, Gandalf, and Elrond lingered before parting: ...they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro. Another example is the voice Frodo hears in his mind on Amon Hen, saying, "Take off the Ring!", which was that of Gandalf as he "sat in a high place, and... strove with the Dark Tower" ("The White Rider"). ("The Black Gate is Closed" confirms that this was Gandalf, when it suggests that Frodo felt Gandalf's thought on him, "as he had upon Amon Hen".) Tolkien discusses the details of this "telepathy" at length in the essay "Osanwe-kenta: Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", which was published in the journal Vinyar Tengwar #39 (available from http://www.elvish.org/). It seems that all minds had this ability, but that it was "dimmed" whenever it passed through a physical body. Elves could therefore use it more easily than humans, as their wills had greater control over their bodies. The essay contains many more fascinating details, but there is not space even to summarize them here. |
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05-13-2007, 09:44 AM | #10 | ||
Elven Warrior
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05-13-2007, 09:25 PM | #11 | ||
Elven Warrior
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We've quickly exhausted what can be said on the other point so let me just respond respectfully to this one:
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As Michael Martinez put it: >> Tolkien wrote that the Third Age was "the fading years of the Eldar. For long they were at peace, wielding the Three Rings while Sauron slept and the One Ring was lost; but they attempted nothing new, living in memory of past." (The Return Of The King, p. 365). Perhaps they established no new kingdoms, but the Elvish songs relating the tragic stories of Nimrodel and the Ents' search for the Ent-wives show that the Elves continued to flourish and interact with other peoples around them long after the war was over. P.S. In case you're wondering, yes, I do understand why many people, not just you, found the Elves showing up at Helm's Deep disconcerting/contrary to Tolkien's story. As a long-time Tolkien fanatic, however, I've never felt the need for the movie to mirror the book in every regard and I dug the Elves - no, not all of them, not Legolas's Green Elves of Mirkwood, for example, but Galadrial's Elves of Lorien - showing up to help. Last edited by Jon S. : 05-13-2007 at 10:02 PM. |
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05-13-2007, 09:28 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
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P.P.S. Here's another POV on this subject which, may I say, is remarkably similar to my own.
>> Arrival of the Elves at Helm's Deep >> The discussion between Elrond and Galadriel, and the subsequent arrival of a force of elves at Helm's Deep was (IMO) a great addition to the movie. In the books, and in the first movie, the first war with Sauron involved an alliance of men, elves, and dwarves. While it is true that the age of elves is passing, they are as yet a force in the Middle Earth. In the first movie, elves were portrayed almost as selfish pacifists who refused to get involved. >> Anyone who has read the Appendices in the Return of the King knows that in fact, Sauron had several forces attacking the dwarves, elves, and men separately, so the non-human races ARE involved, they are just split into racial groups instead of all banded together as in the first war against Sauron. >> By elves coming to Helm's Deep, it shows that the old alliance is still in affect (though fading) and that the non-human races are still involved. http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~sbeck/pers/ttt.html |
06-26-2007, 10:48 AM | #13 |
Elven Warrior
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I find it annoying how film versions of books always feel so damn rushed.
I mean, the movie starts out like "Frodo, this Ring is dangerous - oh no! take it to Bree, right this second!" Then they arrive at Bree AT ONCE, and suddenly Aragorn bumps into their room and magically becomes their ally in a few seconds. They could at least have had him chat with them for a while, so you got a feeling that he actually was included into the group. The movie also felt way too Hollywood-ish; Elijah Wood is too much of a "cute boy for the 12-year-old girls", and I think that he'd come off much better as a character if he were a bit more reserved and mysterious. Last edited by Peter_20 : 06-26-2007 at 10:51 AM. |
06-26-2007, 03:47 PM | #14 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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The movies get enough right, IMO, that it's worth it - I just mentally "hold my breath" thru the terrible parts (and substitute the real story in my head)
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06-26-2007, 08:02 PM | #15 | ||
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One thing that realy bugs me is the army from Minus Morgal.
I'm pretty sure that it's wraiths in the book. And even if it isn't, the army of orcs in the movie doesn't remotely fit the discription in the book! From the book: Quote:
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06-27-2007, 01:57 AM | #16 |
Elven Warrior
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Oh, and Orcs crawling up from the ground =/= corrupted Elves.
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06-27-2007, 11:01 AM | #17 | |
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06-28-2007, 08:13 AM | #18 | |
Elven Warrior
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2Look at me, ain't my big eyes cute?" XD I mean, I have nothing against Hollywood, but it just doesn't seem right when the world of Arda sometimes feels like an American suburb or whatever. |
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06-28-2007, 09:13 AM | #19 | |
Elf Lord
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Does New Zeland look like the american suburbs?!! Besides the movie has been made by a new zelander, who lives and works THERE, not in the Hollywood. Thank God for it, because I am shuddering as imagining a Hollywood version. Ralph Bakshi's is more than enough.
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06-29-2007, 08:29 AM | #20 | |
Elven Warrior
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I meant that the movies sometimes *feel* like Hollywood at some moments; they give off the same feelings as a Hollywood movie. That's not good, because Arda and Hollywood aren't exactly the same things. |
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