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12-18-2007, 04:45 AM | #1 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Images stored on the Palantir HD- the key to find the Ring?
The Palantiri were used for three things
1. Observation 2. Communication between stones 3. Looking in the past It is the third mode (looking in the past) that I propose to discuss. Gandalf says: Quote:
More likely, the only thing possible was to go through the images stored in the Palantir – much like one can go through the image files and video sequences recorded on a computer’s hard disk. Here are the quotes from UT proving that the Palantiri stored images and that the stones were kept in the dark and shrouded to prevent unnecessary images to be stored: Quote:
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The biggest question of the Third Age was the whereabouts of the One Ring. If there was a sequence of Isildur’s last moments recorded by one of the stones, the one who found this sequence would get a HUGE advantage in the search for the One. Isildur fell at the Gladden fields in TA 2. Let us look at the map. The nearest (small) stone is that of Orthanc. The other small stones (Anor, Ithil and Annuminas) are too far away. So the sequence of Isildur’s death could have been recorded either by Orthanc stone or by the bigger stones: Amon Sul and Osgiliath ones. Note this passage in the “Disaster of the Gladden fields”: Quote:
If the stones of Gondor (Osgiliath and/or Orthanc) had recorded the sequence, they had no idea about its importance - as nobody in Gondor seemed to know that Isildur had the Ring. The relationships between Arnor and Gondor quickly deteriorated. And the stone of Osgiliath was lost in 1437. Now let us look at Saruman’s doings: Quote:
And I think he HAS FOUND it recorded in the Orthanc stone. Because who has found Isildur’s body (and Elendilmir with it) in the river? It was Saruman, thousands of years after Isildur’s death and NOT Elrond and Valandil who must have searched the river shortly after the disaster of the Gladden. Also note that Saruman started searching the Gladden about the same time when he got the Orthanc stone - about 2760. Maybe the “bad guys” have figured the importance of the Palantiri for the search of the One as well. The Witch-King sought to capture the Palantir of Amon Sul (1409 and 1974), then got that of Minas Ithil (2002). But this one was of no help. Now it seems that Sauron was able to read much of Saruman’s mind when the latter used his stone. Perhaps he got the idea to search the Gladden from the unsuspecting Saruman? What do you think? ;21 |
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12-18-2007, 07:59 AM | #2 | ||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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A most interesting find, Gordis! I completely missed the reference to the Stones storing images.
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Kind of freaky to think that all conversations that happened through the palantir must also have been recorded. Albeit probably without the sound. It certainly reduces the privacy I thought the stones offered. Anyone skill-full enough who uses the stone after you can see who you've been talking to! (Maybe something to remember, Gordis, in relation to the RPG-palantir scenes. ) However if they store only the images received, they should only retain scenes and memories of what somebody was looking at, at a past moment in time. There is nothing to indicate that the palantirs simply recorded scenes happening around them. If, as you suggest, the death scene of Isildur was stored in a memory of the Stones then somebody most have been looking at the time. I'd say this is unlikely. Unless something is specifically said that the Palantiri store other images than those received, do you have a quote like that somewhere? Quote:
Could the 500 miles-limit then only be for observation? It would seem unlikely that a Stone can 'see' less far than it can 'talk'. Perhaps the smaller Stones could bounce off their contact through other Stones to reach farther away Stones? It would also be interesting to know if someone could tap into the memory of another Stone, possibly this would require a viewer at the second Stone and I think this probably was very unlikely, but it is an interesting thought. Quote:
He could have sifted through the recordings, but I doubt he found Isildur's end there, because I still think the recordings needed a comtemporal viewer, and if there had been a viewer, who then should still be Gondorean, then I think more tidings of the end would have been made known and Isildur's body would have been recovered sooner. And as an after-thought, if we look at the 'odd stone out': Quote:
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12-18-2007, 12:55 PM | #3 | ||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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And I don't think it strange that at least one stone (likely more) followed Isildur's progress North, checking on the party regularly. Isildur was the High King of Arnor and Gondor, after all! And once a warden saw the fight with Orcs, it was highly unlikely he would get bored and stop looking - would you? The fight lasted for several hours and it has started in daylight, but then the night fell - and a palantir gets no image in darkness. However, weak as it is, there is still some light at night. Much more difficult (if at all possible) is to follow an invisible target. Maybe, ripples on the water from the swimming man could be visible. Or the observer just scanned both banks, when he noticed Isildur reappearing by the west bank? He was visible when they shot him. It is likely that three Palantiri (Orthanc, Osgiliath and Amon Sul) have recorded the fight, but only one warden (from Orthanc) was able to see Isildur's end on the west bank. Quote:
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Sure, out of courtesy, the King should have warned Valandil (Isildur's heir) that the last minutes of his father had been recorded, but it looks like Meneldil was rather hostile to the Northern line almost from the start: Quote:
I’ve just had a wild thought... doesn't the situation with Isildur getting "missing, presumed dead" resemble the situation with Earnur? In the latter case the Stewards were able to rule "until the King returns". Maybe in the former case (from Gondorian POV) the High Kinship was suspended "until Isildur is found" - so Meneldsil was really NOT interested to find the body? Last edited by Gordis : 12-18-2007 at 01:20 PM. |
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12-18-2007, 03:21 PM | #4 | ||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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And even if people were tracking the journey of Isildur, there is nothing to ensure that the Wardens would be looking at the exact time of the attack. Isildur reckoned to take 40 days to reach Imladris. The attack happened 13 days into that journey. As watching the Palantir was tiring work, and since no actual trouble was expected, no Warden would have looked at the King's company for several hours a day. Maybe a short daily check-up at most and the end of the day would not have been a good time for that. Quote:
And regardless of Menedil's feeling towards his uncle, if one of the Southern Wardens did report Isildur's demise to the Gondorean King, one would have expected some report of that in the Gondorean Library. Gandalf makes no mention of it, yet it would have been of vast importance during his search for information about the Ring. Never mind the significance of the Ring, Isildur's death or the attack on his company that led to the death of all its members would have in itself been worthy of mention. Quote:
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12-19-2007, 01:50 PM | #5 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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12-19-2007, 02:38 PM | #6 | |
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12-19-2007, 02:46 PM | #7 | |
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12-19-2007, 05:50 PM | #8 |
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Gordis, as I said before, great theory. I think the beauty of it is in the way it explains the some of the motives of those who have tried to gain Palantiri in the Third Age more so than the actual finding of Isildur's belongings.
I see Saruman's discovery of Isildur's things a little differently. I don't believe that Isildur's death was recorded by the Palantiri. Those who would have been tracking him via the Palantiri would have had a very difficult time following him from the battlefield. It is likely that they were quickly scanning the area but never spotted him after he fled. Saruman however, could have gone back through the "files" very carefully and methodically, taking his time, seeing things that the original watchers likely would have missed. I doubt that Saruman pinpointed Isildur's exact location this way, but rather was able to narrow down the area to be searched enough to ensure success. Last edited by CAB : 12-19-2007 at 05:51 PM. |
12-19-2007, 06:16 PM | #9 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks, CAB! I posted it on your request.
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And if we forget about the Ring, just think how wonderful it was to be able to go through the images of the past, while writing history books, while carving statues of ancient heroes! Romendacil has erected statues at Argonath in 1300 something... but the sculptor had only to look in a Stone to see Isildur and Anarion alive! |
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12-19-2007, 06:33 PM | #10 | ||
Elven Warrior
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12-19-2007, 08:26 PM | #11 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Something else I wondered about. Maybe one of you have a good theory about it. Why would the Minas Tirith Palantir show from now on only Denethor's withering hands as he lay on the pyre? I never quite figured out why that image was so powerful that one would always see it upon looking in that Stone after Denethor's death. Could the palantir's memory be full, or was the stone damaged in the fire?
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12-20-2007, 07:28 AM | #12 | ||
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I don't know what has happened to Minas-Tirith stone. Maybe it was damaged by heat - because stones could be even destroyed by great heat (that's what finally happened to Barad Dur-Ithil stone, they surmised -UT.) Anyway, the King and (I guess) his appointed wardens could still use it, even after Denethor's death. It must have been so, because how otherwise could Elessar return the Orthanc stone to Orthanc? Quote:
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12-20-2007, 09:18 AM | #13 | ||
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12-20-2007, 09:25 AM | #14 |
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For the fate of the Anor stone, which Denethor held as he was burned, remember this: The stones are controlled by a person's will - their mind. There is a connection made somehow. The change in the Arnor stone after the death of Denethor, I think, had to do with the fact that he had a very strong will (and he and the stone had already spent a lot of time together... when it had been mostly alone for 1000 years before) - and died in agony, physically holding that stone.
It wasn't fire damage - it was a strong mark made on the stone by a powerful will that was dying. It couldn't have been 'damage' - or no one would be able to use it at all. As for King Elessar's placement of the stones - I don't suppose he expected the northern part of his kingdom - Arnor - to become significant in the near future, and maybe it wasn't so threatened as the rest. I think Tolkien was of two minds about the 'ranges' of the different stones - so I think it's possible they COULD have communicated from a great distance.
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12-20-2007, 10:35 AM | #15 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Where did he get enough men for it?? Immigrants from Gondor and Rohan? Even the rangers he had before the War became depleted. |
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12-20-2007, 06:13 PM | #16 |
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Yes, an imprint from Denethor's will sounds plausible.
Was Fornost and Annuminas rebuilt? I don't remember. But Aragorn sort of gave up a good part of Eriador by giving the Shire a special status. He did however appear to have some settlement near lake Nenuial.
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12-20-2007, 10:02 PM | #17 |
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Aragorn re-established some kind of northern capitol at Annuminas, but there's no mention that he tried to re-settle Fornost.
Things probably picked up in the north somewhat from what they HAD been, but I don't think they became nearly as populous in the next several decades as the southern kingdom was. I imagine that most of the first re-settlers of Annuminas would have been the remnants of the northern Dunedain (who I have become fairly convinced probably lived in very small settlements mostly in the Angle - so they probably packed up and moved from there back to the Glorious City). Gordis - I wouldn't say the rangers were really depleted in the War, since they only sent 30, as many as could be assembled quickly and who could be mounted on horses. They could have had a much greater number scattered too widely to gather, and I bet most went on foot. I don't think it was a setback to Arnor for Aragorn to re-invest the Hobbits with the Shire. He had LOTS of land up there, and few people. A stable, peaceful, neighboring community (with lots of agriculture) would have been a big draw.
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12-21-2007, 10:31 AM | #18 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I meant this quote, Val.
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12-21-2007, 03:36 PM | #19 |
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Just a quick post to say...that's a really cool theory. Albeit the thread title made me laugh a little. HD palantri, what else can we come up with?
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12-21-2007, 05:18 PM | #20 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks! Well, "HD" is an easy way to explain the method of storage. The difference that I see is that one can erase images from a computer HD when it is full, but not from the Palantir's HD. When the latter starts to get full, the images are recorded at lower resolution.
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