08-21-2004, 06:07 AM | #1 |
Fëanorophobic
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Nature vs. Maths
This is a thread for all of you out there; whether you love maths or hate them.
I've always wondered about this topic and I'll divide it into two questions: 1- Is mathematics an invention or a discovery? I mean does it actually exist in nature or is it man's own work? 2- Can perfect mathematics exist in nature? (i.e. does nature have a perfect circle or a perfect straight line, etc...)? I'm going to post my opinions later after I hear some of you Mooters' opinions. Speculate away! |
08-21-2004, 06:15 AM | #2 |
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First off I think Math is in nature but it is not like the way we describe it.
TO me there has to be cuz there are definate constants ie- the golden mean, pi, e, and so on. and I think in nature there can exist a perfect circle or a perfect something it would just be really hard to find. Probably on some distant palnet whos inhabitants have creatyed a perfect-object-shaping machine.
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08-21-2004, 06:26 AM | #3 |
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Man uses mathematics to describe complicated things in the world we live in. We can make certain things in nature easier for us to grasp if we use maths to simplify what we see.
But perfect mathematics absolutely exists in nature and Man has just invented tools to interpret it. Beren, you have read the Da Vinci code, so you surely know about the Divine Proportion. I guess that is at least some evidence that there is mathematics in nature, though it isn't necessarely perfect mathematics. I don't know where in nature you can find perfect circles or straight lines, but I'm sure they exist. I'll have to come back to that. I remember reading a scientific article about how nature is the world's best mathematician and I'll see if I can find the magazine I read it in... I believe it had some examples of natural perfect circles etc.
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08-21-2004, 07:06 AM | #4 | ||
Fëanorophobic
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Quote:
Quote:
P.S. I'd love to see that mag. article if you can supply it |
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08-21-2004, 07:14 AM | #5 |
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well what did you mean by natural. CUz technically since the machine was made of metal and metal came from the earth then isn't the machine natural and since you can probably trace the parts used to make the perfect thingimibobby back to something natural then isnt the whole machine natural and everything it creates natural. Im just being reall stupid, dont pay attention to me.
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08-21-2004, 07:46 AM | #6 |
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I meant natural as in "present in nature" not made by man. Something that God created and placed in the Universe as is. So a tree would be natural, but a house MADE from that tree's wood wouldn't be natural. Get my point?
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08-21-2004, 07:50 AM | #7 |
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I know I was just being stupid. So actually now that I think about it could you ever get a pefect object. Now that I think about no for the reasons you have stated. Thanks
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08-21-2004, 07:56 AM | #8 |
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Ok, do I get it you're on my side now? That no maths existing in nature can be truly perfect. Or, rather more correct, that maths. is not so perfect as to truly model nature?
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08-21-2004, 08:07 AM | #9 |
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What about tesselations in nature - for example in bee hives and basalt pavements. What about bubbles - these are perfect spheres. What about snowflakes, ice crystals and crystals in rocks such as quartz, amethyst etc. These can have perfectly straight lines and flat planes. What about the perfect cone achieved when the ant lion makes its trap. Spider webs?? Shall I continue???
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08-21-2004, 08:21 AM | #10 |
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I meant to say that I think Mathematics does exist but that there re no perfect shapes or correlataions but things that are almos tperfect. Which lends its hand to the idea of MAthematics
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08-21-2004, 09:00 AM | #11 | |
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Quote:
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08-21-2004, 09:06 AM | #12 |
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well technically in AMth 9.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999 does mean 10 according to my AMth teacher but I know what you mean.
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08-21-2004, 11:04 AM | #13 |
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I think that maths are a creation of man, but with a basis in the real world. Sort of a representation of the real world, like arts are.
Perhaps you cannot find in nature perfect euclidean concepts, but sure you can find real maths in the world, the maths of the theory of the big numbers (statistics).
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08-21-2004, 11:11 AM | #14 |
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yeah Fat Middle you just summed up what Ive been trying to say. GOod job. I agree with him.
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08-21-2004, 02:56 PM | #15 | |
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Can, say, a certain creature's behaviour be modelled mathematically? I personally don't believe so. I think that however math tries to model nature, no perfect model can ever be achieved; there would always be this element of spontaneity, of randomness in nature. Do you know what I mean? |
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08-21-2004, 04:52 PM | #16 | |
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08-21-2004, 05:03 PM | #17 | ||
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But considering how gravity and acceleration can distort the space-time continuum, I guess perfect shapes are impossible from a physicist's point of view. Quote:
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08-21-2004, 05:10 PM | #18 |
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You are right of course Jonathon.
We can never prove that everything follows certain principles as it is highly likely we will never see anything.
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08-21-2004, 05:44 PM | #19 |
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While you may never find the perfect circle in nature, you do find mathematical perfections, such as fibonacci numbers in plants and prime number breeding spans. (ie, two species developing in such a way that they reduce competition by only spawning once ever x many prime number years, eg. two incsects coming out every 13 and 17 years.)
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08-21-2004, 05:47 PM | #20 |
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I know what the Fibanacci sequence is but how does it realate to plants?
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