10-25-2002, 08:18 PM | #1 | ||
The Tall
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Elwë's and Olwë's Indisposition
Why were the Teleri's kings indisposed to help their "friends" the Noldor.
First Olwë refuses to grant passage to their friends the Noldor to ME and then Elwë refuses the Noldorian princes access to his kindom in ME save the sons of his kin Finarfin. Quote:
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Olwë's refusal was before the kinslaying and Elwë's refusal was before he had knowledge of the Kinslaying. What's wrong with these people?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-25-2002, 08:33 PM | #2 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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I think it says in the Sil that when the Noldor asked for the use of the ships that the Teleri told them that these ships are to us as the things that you seek from Morgoth are to you, and like them, we shall never make their like again. That's not a direct quote of course. Plus the fact that they were rebelling against the Valar was reason enough not to aid them in their quest.
As for Thingol, Thingol believed that he was the Lord of Beleriand and he did not recognize the lordship and authority of the Noldor. I think as far as he was concerned He was the only authority in Beleriand, and I think that the Noldor showed him otherwise, because they seem to have pretty much set up house where ever they wished outside Doriath. |
10-26-2002, 12:28 AM | #3 |
The Tall
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If the Noldor had in the past given help to the Teleri, then why didn't the Teleri offer the Noldor the use of their ships as a ferry system, in which the Teleri would have been in charge of the ships at all times and move the Noldor to ME.
Thingol is just plain dumb. His pride really hurt the Eldar in ME. The only way that they could have survived Morgoth was to unite against him. Did he truly believed that he could stay in Menegroth forever?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
10-26-2002, 12:41 AM | #4 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Question: When Feanor reached the shores of the outer lands and Maedhros asked him "What ships will you send back, and who would they bear here first, Fingon the Valiant?"[quote from memory] at what point did the Valar cause the way back to be enchanted and lost? Could they have sent ships back once they had reached ME? I think I need to re-read this book. |
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10-26-2002, 01:26 AM | #5 | |||
Elf Lord
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 10-26-2002 at 01:34 AM. |
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10-26-2002, 01:31 AM | #6 | ||
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-26-2002, 01:47 AM | #7 | ||
Elf Lord
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You say "sons of Finwe", but there was only one son to be received: Fingolfin. His reason was pride. From his point of view, Beleriand was the land of the Eluwaith, and Elu was High King of Beleriand, and all were answerable to himself. Even though the Noldor saved him, he liked not at all the idea of other rules and other people coming in. It's seems to be a reocurring story in our history, a lot of new people in a small, rich, beautiful land is a threat. Thingol didn't want his people mingling with the Exiles, and he didn't want the Exiles mingling with his land. So he granted them leave to live where his people didn't and he had no real power. That's prudent of him, I think. It created an unfriendly environment, showed no gratitude to the Noldor for saving his race from destruction at the hands of Angband and weakened the alliance to be against the Dark Lord. However, it kept Doriath under his control, and was maybe better for his own little realm in the long run. Pride is not a good reason, when pride means arrogance and not dignity, but that was his reason. The Kinslaying became a much more powerful reason.
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 10-26-2002 at 01:49 AM. |
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10-26-2002, 03:12 AM | #8 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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ps - Ñólendil - your mailbox is like Barliman's mind, too - would you please clean it out?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-26-2002, 11:00 AM | #9 | |||
Queen of Nargothrond
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10-26-2002, 02:12 PM | #10 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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BTW: Maedhros, I like your avatar, and even more the pic it's taken from.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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10-27-2002, 02:45 PM | #11 | |||||
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-27-2002, 02:54 PM | #12 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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We are not things. |
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10-27-2002, 10:12 PM | #13 | ||
Elf Lord
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As for the Dark Lord's dragons, there was enough time in the long years of the Siege of Angband anyway you slice it.
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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10-27-2002, 10:34 PM | #14 | ||
The Tall
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Yes, I have read the Letters, but how would the characters know? Fingolfin knew too, just before he went to seek Morgoth: Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. Last edited by Maedhros : 10-27-2002 at 10:44 PM. |
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10-28-2002, 01:26 AM | #15 | |
Elf Lord
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You use the destruction of Doriath as evidence that Thingol made the wrong choice, but every realm was destroyed, yet Thingol's was one of the last to fall. Moreover, in the end, the ruin of Doriath had more to do with the shadow and curse that Húrin brought with him than with strife among Elven-kings.
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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10-28-2002, 05:27 AM | #16 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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We are not things. |
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10-28-2002, 10:10 AM | #17 | |||
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-09-2002, 05:08 AM | #18 | |||
Elf Lord
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Watch out Heru Maitimo, you may loose your left hand; I am sharp.
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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11-09-2002, 10:39 AM | #19 | ||||
The Tall
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From The Letters of JRRT: 131
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-09-2002, 11:21 PM | #20 | |||
Elf Lord
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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