Middle-Earth what if...?

[Tig]

I love what ifs, don't you? Sure you do. So, I thought we could talk about some here, and some one can give a new one once in a while. I'd just like to make this clear that this is not focused solely on LotR, or The Hobbit for that matter, but to any time, place, or persons of Middle-Earth. So, I ask you, 'What if Saruman opposed Sauron for control of the ring?'

I'm not sure who would win out physically, the mass-produced Uruks of Isengard, or the vast legions of Mordor orcs, but... Even if Saruman wiped Mordor clean of every orc would he stand a chance? Sauron dies with the ring alone, but without the Orcs defending him could Sauron be removed? Like could Saruman destroy Baradur, and then without anyone to rebuild it would Sauron be 'stuck between' worlds? He'd have no physical presence in Middle-Earth any more, in his body or in Baradur, but with the ring still in one piece he wouldn't be gone. Or would Sauron's will take possession of Saruman, and that be his new, adopted body?

With this I'd like to mention one last thing. I'd like to just point you in the direction of my RP-to-be, which focuses on this what if(?). If you're interested just leave a note here or there (there being >>> http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=547513#post547513 ), but please at least check it out.

[CAB]

My personal feeling is that if Saruman had obtained the One Ring and if he managed to master it, then he would have made Sauron his slave, in much the same way that the Nazgul were slaves to Sauron. If he took the Ring but was unable to master it...well I am not sure. I personally don’t think that Sauron could possess someone else’s body. One way or the other, if Sauron knew that Saruman had the Ring, he would have made quite sure that Saruman’s “One Ring training” was as difficult and unpleasant as possible.

While the Ring continued to exist, Sauron could not be permanently removed. His physical form had been destroyed twice before but he wasn’t truly defeated until the power of the Ring was broken.

I don’t believe that Sauron’s presence was tied to Barad-dur. However, I must admit that I don’t understand the importance placed on this fortress. Why was it mentioned that the foundations of Barad-dur couldn’t be removed while the Ring existed? Why would anyone take the trouble to try to do this anyway? Maybe I am missing something here.

I believe that if Saruman had defeated or enslaved Sauron, then he would have occupied Barad-dur himself, rather than attempt to destroy it.

[Landroval]

While the Ring continued to exist, Sauron could not be permanently removed.

I agree, no soul can be destroyed and all maiars are bound to Ea until the end. But if he lost the mastery of the ring, the result would have been the same as if the ring was destroyed:

Originally Posted by Letter #246

If Gandalf proved the victor [in a direct confrontation, while having the ring], the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.

[Butterbeer]

... who IS this mysterious poster Letter #246 ???

IF Saruman had the one and had mastered it ... he could, were he to choose to, shake down the foundations of Barad-dur ... heres a question though: would he not keep Sauron as a lesser minion, much as he himself did to the nazgul??

far more enteratining!

and what of Gandalf?
What would Lord Saruman of many rings do with him do you think?

[CAB]

If Gandalf proved the victor [in a direct confrontation, while having the ring], the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.

I would say that there are different ways to interpret this quote. It doesn’t seem logical to me that Sauron’s physical body would be destroyed because his forces lost to Gandalf’s forces in battle. If it means that he couldn’t reform his body if Gandalf destroyed it, that makes more sense. But there are other options. It could simply mean that he would never get the Ring back or be able to use the part of his power which the Ring held, in spite of the fact that his body still existed. It could mean that he was permanently weakened, and would never again be the greatest force in Middle Earth, etc.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

IF Saruman had the one and had mastered it ... he could, were he to choose to, shake down the foundations of Barad-dur ... heres a question though: would he not keep Sauron as a lesser minion, much as he himself did to the nazgul??

far more enteratining!

Thanks for the support Butterbeer, if I may take it as such. I freely admit that if there are two equally plausible options, then I will lean towards the more entertaining one. We are talking about a work of fiction after all. This is part of the reason why I think that the Moria Balrog was imprisoned by Sauron instead of moving rocks. It is just more interesting.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

and what of Gandalf?
What would Lord Saruman of many rings do with him do you think?

Probably something bad.

[Gordis]

Interesting thread.

Originally Posted by CAB

My personal feeling is that if Saruman had obtained the One Ring and if he managed to master it, then he would have made Sauron his slave, in much the same way that the Nazgul were slaves to Sauron.

Which was quite feasible. The new Ringlord would have in his possession a part of Sauron'e fea (or his power, or his will) plus he would be able to control Sauron via the 12 Rings he held.

I don’t believe that Sauron’s presence was tied to Barad-dur. However, I must admit that I don’t understand the importance placed on this fortress. Why was it mentioned that the foundations of Barad-dur couldn’t be removed while the Ring existed? Why would anyone take the trouble to try to do this anyway? Maybe I am missing something here.

The foundations were made with the power of the Ring, so couldn't be unmade while the Ring existed. Isildur and Co tried to demolish Barad-Dur after the Last alliance, but failed. Demolishing evemy stronholds was common practice, it seems. Much like Aragorn ordering to raze Minas Morgul.

Originally Posted by CAB

I believe that if Saruman had defeated or enslaved Sauron, then he would have occupied Barad-dur himself, rather than attempt to destroy it.

Sure, he always fancied it. Even tried to reconstruct Isengard in the similar way.

About the quote from # 246.
I interpret it this way. A part of Sauron's fea was contained in the Ring. Once it was destroyed, he lost his shape forever. If Gandalf defeated Sauron in direct confrontation, it meant that he took full possession of the Ring and its powers, depriving Sauron of a part of his fea. So the effect on Sauron would be the same as the Ring's destruction.

I can't say that I agree with this idea, but who am I to contradict the Professor?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Demolishing evemy stronholds was common practice, it seems. Much like Aragorn ordering to raze Minas Morgul.:

Yes, I suppose it is just that simple. Destroying foundations seemed like overkill to me, but I guess if you are destroying a stronghold and the foundation is part of that stronghold...

Originally Posted by Gordis

About the quote from # 246.
I interpret it this way. A part of Sauron's fea was contained in the Ring. Once it was destroyed, he lost his shape forever. If Gandalf defeated Sauron in direct confrontation, it meant that he took full possession of the Ring and its powers, depriving Sauron of a part of his fea. So the effect on Sauron would be the same as the Ring's destruction.:

I don’t know. Sauron’s fea and power must have been tied together or he wouldn’t have put both in the Ring (at least I can’t imagine why). So how do you remove one and not the other? On the other hand, if they (fea and power) are really the same thing then the problem is even bigger. If it was merely deprivation, how would this be any different than Sauron being deprived of the Ring while not being defeated?

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer
IF Saruman had the one and had mastered it ... he could, were he to choose to, shake down the foundations of Barad-dur ... heres a question though: would he not keep Sauron as a lesser minion, much as he himself did to the nazgul??

I agree with you there, but had Saruman got the ring, would he be mentally strong enough to control both Sauron's soul and power. Also, do you think that with the ring, he (sauman) would be able to control the balrog of moria.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

had Saruman got the ring, would he be mentally strong enough to control both Sauron's soul and power. Also, do you think that with the ring, he (sauman) would be able to control the balrog of moria.

You forget about Eru and the Valar. What abouit Gandalf? After Gandalf 'died', went to Valinor and repoted to the Valar and Eru about Saruman's betrayal, he was appointed the Head of the Order of Istari, while Saruman was demoted and cast from the Order. It resulted in the loss of almost all Saruman's power. Only his voice was left to him, and even its effect was weakened.

So the question is, whether Saruman gets the One Ring BEFORE or AFTER he was demoted and his staff and power broken?

[jammi567]

before he got demoted.

[Gordis]

Then I think he had a good chance to defeat Sauron, better than Gandalf.
The Ring-Lore was Saruman's special province.

Perhaps he made his own Ring hoping to supplant the missing One?

I imagine him testing it:
Saruman to nazgul " Come and bow to me!"
Nazgul: " Go to Ungoliant, you fool"

[jammi567]

yes, but do you think his arrogance would get in the way and make him do something stupid. On another 'what if...', what would have happened if instead of waiting two months from the council of Elrond, the company had gone immejectly, because surely Aragon, Gandalf and Elrond knew that without either shapes or horses, it would take time for the black riders to get back to Sauron to tell him what had happened. Just a thought.

[Gordis]

yes, but do you think his arrogance would get in the way and make him do something stupid.

He needs all his arrogance to face Sauron... As for mistakes - who knows?
And Saruman will be much more predictable for Sauron than Gandalf and Co. They think alike.

On another 'what if...', what would have happened if instead of waiting two months from the council of Elrond, the company had gone immejectly, because surely Aragon, Gandalf and Elrond knew that without either shapes or horses, it would take time for the black riders to get back to Sauron to tell him what had happened. Just a thought.

There might have been some slight differences: There would be less orcs in Moria. But Gollum and the Barlog would be there all right. Galadriel would not be expecting to see them: probably they would be denied access to Lorien. Probably there would be no trap at Path Galen, or, alternatively, there would be only Saruman's and Moria orcs, but not Mordor ones. All in all, little would be changed, IMHO.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Yeah, I don't think much would've changed either Gordis.

What if Saruman captured the Ring, defeated Sauron, and took the Nine Rings; could he then decide to give them to new men to create new Wraiths? I don't how the Nine worked but, if I were Sauron I would want some new Wraiths. You know, get some new management. A sort of Wraith Dream Team. It would be hard to find a replacement for the With King but I would definitely try and get Aragorn and Faramir into it. They wouldn't take the ring by choice but Saruman did have a way with words. Eomer would be another I'd try and 'recruit'. Prince Imrahil would be another good addition. Who else would could we get?

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by CAB

It doesn’t seem logical to me that Sauron’s physical body would be destroyed because his forces lost to Gandalf’s forces in battle.

No, it reffers to a direct confrontation between Gandalf and Sauron alone.

Originally Posted by Gordis

If Gandalf defeated Sauron in direct confrontation, it meant that he took full possession of the Ring and its powers, depriving Sauron of a part of his fea.

The fea being indestructible, I fail to see how could one person deprive another of a part of it.

Originally Posted by Gordis

After Gandalf 'died', went to Valinor and repoted to the Valar and Eru about Saruman's betrayal, he was appointed the Head of the Order of Istari, while Saruman was demoted and cast from the Order.

I am curious, how did you arrive at the conclusion he went to Valinor? The letters point otherwise.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I am curious, how did you arrive at the conclusion he went to Valinor? The letters point otherwise.

Like where? To Eru directly?

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Like where? To Eru directly?

Indeedy:

Originally Posted by Letter #156

He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

[Gordis]

Well, it doesn't change matters much. However it is curious that an Ainu fea left the Circles of the World, however briefly. Manwe communicated with Eru without leaving Valinor. Why couldn't Gandalf?

Not that I am much interested in this, anyway...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

The fea being indestructible, I fail to see how could one person deprive another of a part of it.

There is a big difference between deprivation and destruction. It seems possible to me that part of the definition of Ringwraiths could be “Men who are partially deprived of their fea by Sauron, via their individual rings”.

Originally Posted by Landroval

I am curious, how did you arrive at the conclusion he went to Valinor? The letters point otherwise.

Yes, I suppose this one does.

Letter #156
He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

However, this one supports the view that he couldn’t leave the world, yet.

Letter #212
Many of the Ainur did enter into it, and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it. These were the Valar, and their lesser attendants.

Here we find a contradiction in the Letters. Letter #212 supports the view given in the Silmarillion. Letter #156 may support the rather vague statement Gandalf made in The Two Towers. Which is the correct (or most reasonable) view? Logic tells me that Eru had no need to bring Gandalf out of the circles of the world to converse with him, or to send him back to Middle Earth, so I will go with the much more established idea that the Ainur didn’t leave the world until the end. For me, a statement in one letter, which is contradicted by another letter and most of the relevant published material isn’t very convincing.

[Landroval]

Many of the Ainur did enter into it, and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it.

Then again, this statement reffers to the obligation of the valar to remain until the end - yet it doesn't restrict on what Eru could do, because nothing can restrict Eru.

There is a precedent of an Ainu who entered Ea - and then exited it before its end (again, by the intervention of Eru, according to Myths Transformed) - Melkor.