11-22-2006, 04:23 PM | #1 |
Sapling
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fog on the barrow downs
what happened to the barrow wights after the third age?
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11-22-2006, 04:33 PM | #2 | |
Ring-smith
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I thought Tom Bombadill expleled (Or whatever the word might be) them...
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11-26-2006, 02:55 PM | #3 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
One barrows worth. There were hundreds more.
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12-16-2006, 12:48 PM | #4 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
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12-19-2006, 09:14 AM | #5 | |
Salt Miner
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Quote:
I think Forkbeard’s idea – that with the end of the One Ring that barrow-wights ceased to be – must be in strong contention for the fate of the barrow-wights at the end of the Third Age. Can we turn this thread into a poll on the subject? |
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12-19-2006, 09:42 AM | #6 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Unfortunately, I believe polling capabilities are turned off here at Entmoot.
It is an interesting idea. I had always assumed that the wights might be among the evil that remained in Middle Earth after the (final) Fall of Sauron - but this is certainly another possibility.
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12-19-2006, 01:27 PM | #7 |
Elf Lord
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I think the answer is uncertain. The barrow-wights were spirits that entered into the barrows when the Witch-King was active in Angmar, but there is no direct reason to believe that they were in any way directed by him or would simply disappear when he died. Not all (evil) spirits of ME were under the sway of Sauron.
However, Sauron DID make strenuous efforts to bring all evil beings under his control, and we have a definite suggestion that the wights were at least instigated by the Witch-King, so perhaps it would be reasonable to infer that they would at least be diminished after Sauron's fall. |
12-19-2006, 01:58 PM | #8 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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There is a direct evidence that the Wights were sent to inhabit the Barrows by the Witch-King himself. It is in UT "the Hunt for the Ring".
Quote:
But I agree with the Gaffer, there is no evidence that the Witch-King made the Barrow wights. Most likely they were houseless Elven fear, simply "housed" in a way with the help of the Witch-King. In this case, their existence was not directly connected with the Witch-King, or Sauron, or the Rings. Most likely they remained where they were after the Ring was destroyed. Also consider that their presence in the Barrows had some positive effect, discouraging grave robbers from plundering the great riches accumulated in the old burial mounds of the Edain. Probably this was the reason why Tom let them be for so long. Were there no wights, he would have to guard the Barrows himself. And he was such a busy man! |
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12-19-2006, 04:30 PM | #9 | ||
Salt Miner
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In Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)”, “Of Death and the Severance of Fëa and Hröa”, it is said that the spirits of Elves who die are summoned to Mandos, but that they may refuse the summons; but that so refusing to face the Valar was a sign of taint, and subjected the Elven-spirit to a counter-summons by Morgoth (and later by Sauron). The Houseless Elves then wander the earth, looking for bodies, which they are willing to steal from the Living (even from Men) if they can. Quote:
Like Valandil, I had always assumed that this was the situation: Men were required to ferret out and destroy these vile infestations if they hoped to use the Barrow-downs again in the Fourth Age. My only observation, which I had never considered before I read Forkbeard’s post, is that if the Witch-king used his Ring of Power to accomplish this, that work would have been undone when the One Ring was destroyed; but if the Witch-king used some other sorcery that did not require his Ring of Power – supposing that either he simply did not use it, or that Sauron already held it himself, having taken it from the Ringwraith – then the evil goetia would continue even after the end of the One Ring, the Ringwraiths, and the ability of Sauron to effect change in Arda. Last edited by Alcuin : 12-19-2006 at 04:33 PM. |
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12-19-2006, 05:48 PM | #10 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
I have never read HoME stuff unfortunately. Just as well: looks like Icelandic or something. Interesting comments, and thanks for the UT reference, Gordis. Just checking though, in the particular section in UT this comes from, is it "third person" (i.e. the author writing what happened) or is it related by another character? One other thing: Tom Bombadil specifically arranges the treasure from the barrow on the top of the mound, "free for man or beast to take" (or something). In this way the spell would be broken and no wight would be able to return. Clearly there is some sort of significance to this, though FIIK what it is... |
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12-19-2006, 07:27 PM | #11 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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12-19-2006, 11:17 PM | #12 | |
Salt Miner
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Many parts of “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)” in Morgoth’s Ring, such as “Of Death and the Severance of Fëa and Hröa” and “Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar…” (a very long section title, often abbreviated so), are written in an odd fashion, not quite third person, not quite first. This occurs again in “Dangweth Pengoloð” (Sindarin for “thus spake Pengoloð”) in Peoples of Middle-earth, a mixed first and third person – not what your English composition teacher would pass, but it works convincingly well.
Pengoloð the Wise of Gondolin was the last of the Lambengolmor, the “Loremasters of Tongues [Language]” in Middle-earth. The greatest and founder of the Order was Fëanor himself; another was Rúmil of Tirion, who apparently did not pass into Middle-earth during the Rebellion of the Noldor. (Rúmil devised the Tengwar.) Pengoloð was born in Nevrast in the First Age, moved to Gondolin, escaped in the company of Tuor and Idril, and probably lived in Lindon for most of the Second Age. Late in the Second Age of Middle-earth, he left Lindon for Tol Eressëa as Sauron rose to dominance, even over the Kings’ Men faction of the Númenóreans (whose survivors were the forefathers of the Black Númenóreans). From time to time, Tolkien hints that Mortal Men might, through Divine Grace or by accident, stumble upon the Straight Road and come to Tol Eressëa or even the shores of Eldamar (cf. Smith of Wootton Major), as recounted in the last lines of Silmarillion: Quote:
Ælfwine was blown off-course and landed upon the island of Tol Eressëa (sometimes called by the name of its port, Avallónë, probably intended in its origin to be Arthurian Avalon), where he met and was befriended by Pengoloð. Pengoloð told him the histories compiled by Rúmil (Ainulindalë and the histories of Valinor before the Rebellion of the Noldor) and the Quenta Silmarillion, written by Pengoloð himself. Ælfwine translated these into Anglo-Saxon (hence the unusual but seemingly natural first person/third person shifts in the narratives of some of the texts, or more commonly third person told from first person accounts), and then returned to England with them. When The Lord of the Rings was written, Ælfwine fell by the wayside, and Translations from the Elvish by Bilbo Baggins during his sojourn in Rivendell became the source of the stories found in The Silmarillion; but Ælfwine never vanished altogether, appearing as late as the 1950s in “Dangweth Pengoloð” and “Of Lembas”, which Christopher Tolkien found “enclosed in a newspaper of 5 January 1960, on which my father wrote: ‘Two items from the lore of Pengoloð’, and also ‘Danbeth [answer] to question. How/Why did the Elvish language change? Origin of Lembas.’” (Introduction to “Dangweth Pengoloð” in Peoples of Middle-earth) |
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12-20-2006, 06:53 AM | #13 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2006
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exactly what i was going to say Alcuin!
very interesting indeed - my thanks. Great discussion in general too - i side on balance that they existed independently as wights long after the destruction of the one and party. |
12-20-2006, 01:03 PM | #14 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
So I am pretty sure that the Houseless were capable to take over the bodies in the Barrows without the Witch-King having to herd them there in person and chant spells all night. I think all the Witch-King did was to order the Houseless spirits under his command (and he must have had a great Power in the Shadow World especially while he had his Ring) to go to Cardolan, find the Barrows, take over the dead bodies there and guard the Barrows until new orders. That doesn't make the existence of the wights dependant on the Rings in any way. |
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12-20-2006, 10:08 PM | #15 | |
Salt Miner
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Quote:
As for the warning that the Houseless Elves would try to possess the living, I think that is more in the sense of overriding the free will of the fëa inhabiting the body. These materials from Morgoth’s Ring are the work of Pengoloð transmitted through Ælfwine, so the warning is likely to be a warning to Men, not to Elves, who in most cases would be able to ward off an assaulting spirit: the warning is against necromantic practice, which is both dangerous and evil in and of itself. To me, it seems that the Witch-king summoned the Houseless Elves, who were either unable to resist his summons or actually willing to participate in his nefarious plans, at least at first. He then put them into the bodies of dead Men and helped get them restarted – a kind of Frankenstein act. (Frankenstein is also a story warning people against the evils and dangers of necromancy.) |
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