The Nazgûl's Powers

[Attalus]

At Valandil's request, I will lead off with this question: what do you think that the Nazgûl could do? I mean, offensively, martially? My sig quote says what I think and why I believe it. JRRT goes on to say (in that Letter) that this is before Sauron added demonic power to the Witch-King, right before the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, which explains why he was able to shatter Éowyn's shield and break her arm. Before that, the Nazgûl seem rather ineffective. At Weathertop, Gandalf and then Aragorn are able to drive them off single-handedly, Aragorn with the feeble help of the Hobbits. They were able to scatter the Dunedain at Sarn Ford, but I suspect that they bolted because Aragorn was not there, in very fear, and a running or cowering man is an easy target for a backstab. All they could do to poor Frodo is stab him with a knife, when surely nine beings like the Witch-King in the Pellenor would have just killed them all and taken Frodo with them. And what about the Prancing Pony? Why didn't they just storm the place and take it? True, Aragorn was there, but he was only one man and they didn't know that, anyway. Think of the burlesque recorded in "The Hunt for the Ring" with the Nazgûl, including the W-K, blundering abou the countryside, looking for the Shire. Even then, the best they could do is terrify the Southron spy and Wormtongue. Saruman made fools of them. Well, there is the gauntlet.

[Fat middle]

I believe that the Nazgul had a little problem with sight. I think I've read it in Letters too (EDIT: Nope, it doesn't seem to be in Letters. Perhaps it was just Gandalf in Rivendell): they cannot see the world like we see it, because they're in the other world, the world of the wraiths and the spirits. In the night, however, their vision was better.

This problem may have been important in their fights with Gandalf and Aragorn.

Then, they seem very weak... but for the fear they inspired. The question is, how can they inspire such a terrible fear, even to the point of "coming over one" in the "form" of the Black Breath? Wearing black clothes, speaking in hissings, etc. do not seem a sufficient response.

I've been thinking about this, and the only explanation I can find is related with the reasons that Tolkien gave (I believe they're in the same Letter. EDIT: ) to explain how could Glorfindel stand them and the words of Gandalf (?) about it:

When you met a Black Rider you may be frightened by his external aspect, but at the same time, your spirit is confronting his. Men and hobbit may not be conscious of this confrontation, but elves are (at least those who had lived in the Blessed Realm, and I suppose that all them, though in a minor degree).

The presence of the wraith in the other world is very powerful, and perhaps it could result in a sort of extenuation of your spirit, aka Black Breath.

Hmmm, I think I'll look for some quotes before I say more nonsense

[Valandil]

Thanks for posting this Attalus. I should take the time to do some directed study before attempting a contrarian's reply. Interesting what you say about Sauron adding the demonic power at the one point. I have read the 'Letters' but only once. I'll start my study with that one and re-check some portions of the text and appendices.

Thanks again. May take me a few days, as we have a tough deadline at work - and I'm putting in overtime as well as my lengthy commute (and then there's that wife and three boys I go home to...).

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

Then, they seem very weak... but for the fear they inspired. The question is, how can they inspire such a terrible fear, even to the point of "coming over one" in the "form" of the Black Breath? Wearing black clothes, speaking in hissings, etc. do not seem a sufficient response.

When reading this I came to think about the Oathbreakers. The fear which they arose resembles the fear people felt of the Nazgûl. Now that's something to ponder about.

Edit: The Nazgûl had a few phobias too, they feared both water and fire. Actually, at the Ford of Bruinen, they were caught in the middle of two evils: The river, and Glorfindel and Aragorn with burning torches:

At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn. [Author's note.]

UT, The hunt for the Ring, Note 3.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by Artanis

When reading this I came to think about the Oathbreakers. The fear which they arose resembles the fear people felt of the Nazgûl. Now that's something to ponder about.

Yep. Very interesting compassion

Here's the quote I was refering to. It's from Many Meetings. gandalf speaking of the elves from Rivendell:

They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.

It's also curious what Frodo says a bit above:

`Then why do these black horses endure such riders? All other animals are terrified when they draw near, even the elf-horse of Glorfindel. The dogs howl and the geese scream at them.'

Also to be pondered. Has the animals some sort of life in the "other world" to sense the presence of the wraiths?

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

It's also curious what Frodo says a bit above:
Also to be pondered. Has the animals some sort of life in the "other world" to sense the presence of the wraiths?

Didn't Gandalf answer that question promptly? "Because these horses are born and bred to the service of the Dark Lord in Mordor." Not a wholly satisfactory answer perhaps.

[Ñólendil]

I think what Fat Middle is getting at is not the answer to Frodo's question, but the validity to Frodo's comments. That is, Fat Middle doesn't want to know why the horses bear the Nazgul, he wants to know why or how it is that the animals (at least common dogs and geese) howl and scream at them.

[The Gaffer]

Interesting discussion. Here's my two taters worth.

I recall Gandalf mentioning that when Frodo put on the Ring he became visible to them and they might have seized him. The purpose of the knife attack was to turn Frodo into a wraith, presumably to facilitate this.

This led me to the conclusion that the Ringwraiths existed almost entirely in the "other world" and had very little power to physically affect the real world. However, clearly they can wear clothes and have shape of some sort, and perhaps we can assume that this includes the ability to wield weapons.

So why didn't they just kill Frodo and take the Ring? Perhaps being the Ring-bearer gave him some sort of protection; maybe they couldn't actually handle the Ring and needed to take Frodo in wraith-form back to Sauron.

Elsewhere in LOTR there was reference to their increasing in power as Sauron increased in power, which might explain some things.

[Ñólendil]

Perhaps they had more use of Frodo as an enslaved wraith, then they did as a dead Hobbit. Also, they weren't counting on plain-Hobbit-resistance, and expected Frodo to turn into a wraith quite quickly.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

I think what Fat Middle is getting at is not the answer to Frodo's question, but the validity to Frodo's comments. That is, Fat Middle doesn't want to know why the horses bear the Nazgul, he wants to know why or how it is that the animals (at least common dogs and geese) howl and scream at them.

Of course, thanks, I see it now.
*feeling fairly stupid*

[Attalus]

I don't think there is any question that they can wield weapons: the W-K stabbed Frodo and the Nine killed several Dunedain at Sarn Ford. I suspect, though, that the Black Horses are their primary weapon, especially against anyone afoot. A well-trained warhorse is a weapon in itself.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I recall Gandalf mentioning that when Frodo put on the Ring he became visible to them and they might have seized him. The purpose of the knife attack was to turn Frodo into a wraith, presumably to facilitate this.

It is my oppinion that on Weathertop there were only 5 wraiths that were being driven back by 4 little Hobbits and a Man. I think their plan was to do what they could, stab Frodo and hope that he would turn in to a wraith quickly. Yet even if it was a slow proccess they could now perceive Frodo much better, their plan may have been to gain the ability to track Frodo and wait for all nine to attack a weakend group of 3 little Hobbits a Man and a hlaf wraith Hobbit. I think the odds would have been a bit different and Frodo would have been lost.

Originally Posted by Artanis

Didn't Gandalf answer that question promptly? "Because these horses are born and bred to the service of the Dark Lord in Mordor." Not a wholly satisfactory answer perhaps.

(I know this is kind of off topic but it was just buggin me ya know)
Anyways, isn't it said that no horse is breed and born in Mordor!? If I remember correctly didn't a force of Mordor raid the Rohan and take every black horse!? Im pretty sure I just read something like that in The Two Towers. Something like there was not a single black horse left in rohan...?
and again sorry bout the off topicness, i shall post again regaurding the nazgul as i think i have a lot to say about them...

[Pytt]

yes thats right. i also remember about that all black horses from rohan where taken to mordor.

[Attalus]

Yep, the black horses were originally from Rohan. As JRRT frequently remarked, none of his characters knows everything. And the post about there being only five Nazgul at Frodo's wounding is quite correct, but I do not think that all nine being present would have caused all that different an outcome.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

So why didn't they just kill Frodo and take the Ring? Perhaps being the Ring-bearer gave him some sort of protection; maybe they couldn't actually handle the Ring and needed to take Frodo in wraith-form back to Sauron.

I think that Tolkien stated somewhere (can anybody help here with the quote?) that it was Frodo's braveness what saved himself from death. The stabbing of the Witch King was aimed to Frodo's heart but since he was also trying to stabb the ringwraith, the knife only pierced his left shoulder.


BTW, Ñolendil is right: that was what I meant

[Lefty Scaevola]

Their main power seems to be the psychic/telepathic fear (it seems to affect persons who do not even know the Nazgul are around) which appear to compound when more of them are together.
The WitchKing, per his title, is an acomplished sorceror
In direct batlle, they do not appear to have any specila strenghts beyond which humans weild, wich is consistant with them hanging back most of the time and using the fear power.
They have the Black Breath, some sort of socerous germ warfare power.

[Imric]

Did not the Witch-King help break the Gate at Minas Tirith with sorcery after Grond had initally failed to break through?

The drums rattled and rolled. With a vast rush Grond was hurled forward by huge hands. It reached the Gate. It swung. A deep boom rumbled through the City like thunder running in the clouds. But the doors of iron and posts of steel withstood the stroke,

Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.

Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it broke asunder; there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.

-Return of the King.

How should one interpet this scene?

[Ñólendil]

Well, Tolkien said in the Letters that the Witchking, by the time of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, had been greatly enhanced with demonic power. I imagine this means that Sauron invested part of himself in the Witchking, thus making him more powerful, and so able to do such things as you quote.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Well, Tolkien said in the Letters that the Witchking, by the time of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, had been greatly enhanced with demonic power. I imagine this means that Sauron invested part of himself in the Witchking, thus making him more powerful, and so able to do such things as you quote.

Yes, in the Famous Letter #210,9, JRRT explicitly said that the W-K had been empowered with "demonic force." To quote the passage would not be excessive, I feel:

The Witch-King, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pellenor, the darkness had only just broken.

[Imric]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Yes, in the Famous Letter #210,9, JRRT explicitly said that the W-K had been empowered with "demonic force." To quote the passage would not be excessive, I feel:

When would you say this empowement occurred? At Minas Morgul, perhaps, when Frodo and Sam witnessed blue flame rising from the tower of the Dead City after Mount Orodruin had erupted?