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08-10-2002, 02:22 AM | #1 | |
the Shrike
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Gallup Poll, Saddam, and other matters. (no US bashing!)
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Mods, feel free to close it, if it gets heated. Thanks.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 08-10-2002 at 02:24 AM. |
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08-10-2002, 07:35 AM | #2 |
im quite stupid
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cockermouth
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Well bush is doing the right thing eventually after god knows how many years. His dad made the mistake many years ago of not finishing the job. Bush is just tieing up lose ends. Margrate Thatcher wanted to get sadam or kill him at the time but george decided against it. That how these conflicts end by getting the man at the top not just leaving him to try and build his power up all again.
As for it turning into another vietnam it very doubtfull that would occur for the simple reason of geography. Vietnam is a jungle country whilst Iraq is mostally desert. Gorrial warfare is not suited to Iraq as theres no where to hide. Im not so sure a full scale millitary operation is required you know. I think that a carefully planned extraction of sadam is all thats needed. Take away there leader and they will fail.
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08-10-2002, 08:19 AM | #3 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Guerilla warfare is not limited to jungles. There is also urban guerilla warfare. I would imagine that any occupation would be easy to get into and difficult to get out (think West Bank). It is far more efficient to use the threat to force inspections to be allowed again. Hussein will fall eventually, however there is no clear opposition party but rather a "anti-hussein faction" that is only unified in their opposition and would part company as soon as Hussein is toppled.
Nothing is as simple as it ought to be.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
08-10-2002, 01:43 PM | #4 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
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It's very sad, because I DON'T think toppling Saddam is worth the loss of life, BUT if he isn't and "they" are right that he is building weapons of mass destruction, then the loss of life will be much greater in the future if he uses them. I think the US does need to put more of the responsibility for this in the hands of the UN, while pledging to use all available resources for the purpose of supporting whatever action they deem necessary. By putting it in the hands of the UN, the US can hopefully escape becoming the Big Bad Guy in the eyes of many around the world. If we continue to be seen as evil in their eyes, we will continue to have problems with terrorism. If the UN is the one acting, we can still use our power, but it won't be us giving the orders.
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08-10-2002, 03:10 PM | #5 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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I agree that Bush should consult with Congress. Congress has been meeting for months and Bush is starting to meet with them. Constitutionally only Congress can declare war (although presidents have been able to get around this since the Korean War). The US has not been in a declared war since WWII. Congress has held talks and we are in an "unofficially" declared war on terrorism. In order to really generate support with American people - Congress MUST be consulted on military actions.
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I don't necessarily think we need the FULL support of the international community. Bush has been meeting with the various leaders and I know that Tony Blair is sticking his neck out by saying that he would go along with an attack on Iraq. Germany and France are completely against it (at least without it being sactioned by the UN). But when isn't France generally against what America does? Quote:
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Azalea - what is the UN going to do? First most people - especially the Middle Eastern countries feel we control the UN. So their just going to view it as the US anyway. Our own military is going to be used BUT then will be taking orders from an outside organisation. OUR militray reports FIRST to the AMERICAN people - not to some international body such as the UN. It was the US that was fighting for Smart Sancation with Iraq - in order to help the Iraqi people. Russia was one country that was againt - but most people still report in the international community that "OUR" sanctions are hurting the Iraqi people. I'm really hoping that Rumsfield's statements about Afganistan don't come back to bite him. For one thing - Afganistan may be a lot better off than they were - but the situation there isn't all roses. If the President of Afganistant is assassinated then what happens then? Who takes over? Does that throw the entire country into anarchy again? Quote:
We know Hussein is a madman - he used chemical weapons on his own people for god's sakes. Do people really think given the chance he wouldn't use them on France, England, the US given the chance? Or that he wouldn't supply them to terrorist groups? Do people realise what a hit to the world economy there would be if another major attack is successful? He's just biding his time right now. He doesn't want an attack right now because he's not really prepared. I DO FEEL he will attack without provcation though or supply a terrorist group weapons to attack a western country. He just wants the time and place on his terms. Concerning not going after Hussein. The only reason why Bush didn't continue on with pursuing Hussein and removing him from power is because the coalition was falling apart. After Iraq was removed from Kuwait - most people felt the war was over. The US went through the UN to get weapons inspectors, set up sanctions and so forth against Iraq. Well we see how effective the UN has been with that. Now the decision needs to be are we going to finish off what should have been done before? Many Americans I think felt after the Gulf War that we would have had Hussein assinated (even though the US government does not openly support the assination of world leaders). Cirdan - I agree - city warfare is not the easiest. Hopefully we can avoid that. But it proves that Hussein will go to all lengths to protect himself and can care less about his own people - let alone anyone else in the world. He would rather hide behind woman and children and give their lives up. If it comes to city warfare - I think the US will be using a lot of special forces and clandestine operations to carry out the operations. I just hope that CNN and the rest of the American media - or even the world media - can keep it's mouth shut about strategy and what's going on so more of our miitary personnel don't get killed. I feel we have a right to know what's going on - but not a step by step analysis as it happens - while the enemy watches everything we do off our own satelites and news organisations.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-10-2002 at 03:54 PM. |
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08-10-2002, 04:46 PM | #6 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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The justifications used in a possible attack on Iraq could be made for numerous nations. Are we going to invade them all? There has been little to differentiate the terrorist support in Iraq from that of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, Pakistan, Lybia, North Korea, Indonesia, China and others.
The truth is that the Iraqis have no delivery vehicles capable of reaching the US. None of the allied forces that joined in Desert Storm are willing to participate. The likelyhood that the regime could be toppled by other means is growing. More US citizens have been killed by Pakis than by Irags in recent years. Why don't we invade them? War should always be the last resort, otherwise we are just like every other despotic militarist empire that ever came and went. If you want to see the world economy disrupted then let the Middle East situation turn into a full scale regional war. I would contend that the focus on Iraq is a family issue with Bush. Iran, one of the world's largest oil producers is buiding 3 breeder reactors with the help of the Russians. Why do you think that is? Are we going to invade Iran or Russia because they may/do have weapons of mass destruction? Are we so fearful that this tin-pot dictator is actually a threat to us? Pulease
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
08-10-2002, 05:17 PM | #7 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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I do believe that war should be a last resort - but in the middle east - even if it is the last resort they twist it into "The west against Islam" anyway. And Iraq right now has a madman as a ruler. Whereas the other countries - including Iran are a little more stable. I want you to say that to the victims families if the New York Subway system or something is attacked by terrorist groups that received their weapons from Iraq. You can't be so blind in your pacifism to think that Iraq isn't producing weapons of mass destruction and most likely plans on using them - are you? The US is AGAINST Russia building the Nuclear reactors in Iran. The question with Iran is what will happen if the Fundamentalist Clerics overthrow Iran's leader. I don't believe that Iraq is a famly issue - I think we should have finished the job when we had the chance. Instead we went to the weak UN and left it up to them and they haven't done anything. Yeah - a full scale war in the middle east would be bad for the world economy - but just think - it might get something that you and so many other people want. Get Europe and the US's dependence off of oil. If the flow of Middle Eastern oil stops - you better believe that there would be a push for alternative fulls. I'm not saying it'll be easy - but Europe and Japan needs Arab oil more than the US does. And Saudi Arabia and all the other countries in the Middle East rely on the WESTERN WORLD to buy it. So it's not in their best interest to let that happen either. I seriously doubt that the Arab World would sacrofice their WELFARE and MONEY for Iraq - who they all hate. Also - what kind of delivery vehicles are required? All chemical or biological require is someone mad enough to blow themselves up or die for the cause. And we know that the Middle East has no shortage of them. Also - until 9/11 VERY FEW American's were killed by Al Qaeda. Most of the people killed in those attacks - such as the embasy bombings and so forth - were not Americans. Now everyone asks why nothing was done, why didn't Bush look at the Clinton plan sooner, why didn't we do more to go after Al Qaeda. But I do recall the outcry that we bombed a suspected biological weapons factory - but was reported (with no proof) that it was a medical facility. But because of the American backlash against getting American's killed for a "supposed" threat - the US government backed off. We didn't take action in Afganistand, we let the threat grow and continue. Then 9/11 hit and everyone seems to forget how everytime we did do anything - there was always the questions of why. 9/11 answered that question. Just like the US government had more information on Al Qaeda and had plans of taking them out that we didn't have - I'm sure the US government currently has information on Iraq. We'll just have to see what develops right now.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-10-2002 at 05:49 PM. |
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08-10-2002, 06:38 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Does anyone remember when Iraq was our ally against Iran? Has anything fundamentally changed in Iraq since those years when we were supplying them with weapons? I am far from a fan of Hussein's, but it does seem that he is an easy distraction from domestic issues.
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08-10-2002, 06:47 PM | #9 |
im quite stupid
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cockermouth
Posts: 2,058
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Iraq seems to be a bit of a bad smell that just isnt going away. President bush seems to want to put right his fathers wrongs im sure that his dad regreats he didnt finish the job.
Im not sure what the USA beef is with iraq yes they have a dictator and yes they probably have wepons of mass destruction. But do they want to pick a fight with u? i think not. iraqs probably with the us is probably that you pi** them of with all you wepon inspections and embargos. Inspections are ok but embargos are stupid they do nothing but hurt the poor sadam will allways have all the money he wants.
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Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot |
08-10-2002, 06:50 PM | #10 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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The world changes and attitudes change and countries change. There have been several times we're I've thought we've been coming closer to Iran. But with the Cleric Fundamentalist putting presure on things there - we're drifting apart again.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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08-10-2002, 06:57 PM | #11 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Okay, my problem with the potential war on Iraq is that is seems as of yet unprovoked. The UN has been in there and were allowed in most places, but only a few were withheld A former US republican who went into the UN as a weapons inspector has said that he can say 100% that there are no WHOLE weapons of mass destruction. That seems good enough to me. Furthermore, this whole UN is useless because they didn't declare war on Iraq for not submitting to weapons inspection seems to be a bit of a white elephant. They on the one hand, did submit to most of the areas being inspected, and on the other hand, nobody is inspecting the US for weapons of mass-destruction, and we KNOW that they are there - seems a bit hypocritical, don't you think? Also, if the Bush administration does follow through with this seemingly unprovoked war, doesn't that make them as bad as the terrorists they are supposedly fighting?
Give me some good reasons why the US should go to war, and then maybe I'll reconsider my viewpoint, but at the moment it seems wholly unprovoked. Also, if the reasons are good enough, then I think the US should definately go through the UN. That way, if anything goes wrong, at least the maneuvers were sanctioned by the rest of the world.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
08-10-2002, 07:01 PM | #12 |
Elf Lord
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Very valid point, jerseydevil. My feeling is, however, that governments in general (all of them, not just the US), claim that military actions are necessary from a moral imperative. I'm not sure that's the real reason behind most conflicts, but convincing your citizens that they are on the side of 'good' is the most effective way to garner their support. The reality is usually much uglier -- economic or political motivations drive most acts of aggression.
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08-10-2002, 07:01 PM | #13 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Also - it was the COALITION that wanted weapons inspectors - not just AMERICA. Thanks for making my point Sween that even when America goes through others or is supported by others - we still get the blunt of the blame by people that may not like it.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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08-10-2002, 07:06 PM | #14 |
the Shrike
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I thought that the sanctions were suggested by the US and THEN pushed through by the UN?
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
08-10-2002, 07:18 PM | #15 |
im quite stupid
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Unfortnatally the structre of the UN is not really very good. Its a lose affliation of countries which has very little leadership. How the UN works is for a country to take action then they back them up. Its never made the clear the UN is taking the action. As with anything in the world it requires leadership. leadership should allways be taken by the most competent and strongest person (in this case country) and theres the problem is. Britian come in at an adrimable 2nd place but there are too many countries that wont stand up and be counted.
The fatle flaw of the UN is that most countries care very little for what is outside them and will support but will happily shift responsability to someone else.
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Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot |
08-10-2002, 07:26 PM | #16 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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The thing is - as the President keeps saying and everything - there is no time table. It was just reported - and I included links to some articles - that state that nothing may even happen at all this year. Everyone says that we should look at deplomatic alternatives first. Well we are. ABC News World News Satruday just had on that today a lot of Bush's Advisers are against attacking Iraq. Everyone acts like we have troops and battleships cruising to the area. We have nothing going on. To be honest with you - I still need some proof. I'm not against attacking Irag. I htink Hussein is a liar and is just biding his time. I just hope if he does attack or something - that it's some other country. And BoP - comparing Iraq to the US and saying we should have weapons inspectors is a little ridiculous. Every country has them - but which ones are more likely to use them. We KNOW that Iraq has already used chemical weapons against his own citizens. Again you state we should go with the weak UN - to hide behind so public opinion won't point the finger at the US. Well I think Sween already made my point that people and countries seem to ignore when the US gets "world support" and just claims it's the US. The no fly zones that the US keeps in Iraq - are santioned and were instituted by the UNITED NATIONS. I feel if we're going to be blamed for stuff anyway - why hide behind a weak world governing body and just take responsibility for what WE want. Everyone thinks the UN is the US puppet anyway - so why deal with them? Just go for what we want directly. It's not like it changes world opinion by the US going through the UN.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-10-2002 at 07:32 PM. |
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08-10-2002, 07:39 PM | #17 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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they wanted to protect. " and Jordan says - "these sanctions .... undermine the national economic interests of the region's states, including Jordan."
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-10-2002 at 08:04 PM. |
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08-10-2002, 08:02 PM | #18 | |||||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I don't want another Pearl Harbor, but I don't want another Havana Bay (Sinking the Maine) type incident either. Our claim, as a nation, to be more just and civilized would be a hollow mockery. Why we didn't go after Al Qaeda sooner I'll never understand. I do remember it being very political; back in the good ol' days when we had a high flying economy and political rancor was sport because no one acknowledged the very real threat that was clear from the acts against the WTC the first time and the embassy attack. Sometimes I wonder if they shouldn't lengthen the term for congressmen since they seem to spend most of their time running for office and, er, ahem... raising money, instead of thinking about the tasks at hand. I will support our troops once a decision has been made, but I would expect a thorough justifaction, lacking an overt act of war, before any lives are taken. My uncle fought in WWII in the Pacific. He was one of the first troops to enter Hiroshima. To this day he has nightmares from him war experiences. He did his best to keep his boys out of Vietnam, even though he himself volunteered. War is a serious matter the discussion of which should not be viewed as an interuption of a round of golf.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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08-10-2002, 08:29 PM | #19 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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I know about the other countries. I also think we should be a little more hard on our middle east "so called allies". Saudi Arabia is a joke as an allie - and yes I have read the reports.
Also - as I said - I'm not necessarily for war at this time. I think more facts have to come out. A lot of what you put - I could have put on my first post - but then it would have been 3 pages long. No - bombing Iraq won't make us immediately save. Yes the Palestinian/Israeli thing needs to be resolved to bring a more lasting peace. The Middle East doesn't won't peace in that region because it enables them to keep their citizen's attention on something besides their miserable existence in their own country. Quote:
And I agree prices of gas will rise. But isn't that what I hear so many people saying is the US's problem. Gas is cheap here. Let's raise gas to $4 a gallon. There was a letter in the Princeton Packet yesterday that France has $4 a gallon gas and that US should too.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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08-10-2002, 08:37 PM | #20 | |
Best Ex-Administrator ever
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